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Thread: Pedro Florimon

  1. #241
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    A hypothetical for all to consider.

    Florimon produces the same great defense as last season, possibly/probably even better just from his 2013 experience, coaching, etc. And let's assume some offensive progression where he hits the rough averages of production he met during his full seasons in the minors (2007-2012).

    The numbers would look something like this:

    .249/.321/.354/.675OPS with 21Dbls/3triples/5HR/16Sb's

    Now, how does the debate look?

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  3. #242
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    A hypothetical for all to consider.

    Florimon produces the same great defense as last season, possibly/probably even better just from his 2013 experience, coaching, etc. And let's assume some offensive progression where he hits the rough averages of production he met during his full seasons in the minors (2007-2012).

    The numbers would look something like this:

    .249/.321/.354/.675OPS with 21Dbls/3triples/5HR/16Sb's

    Now, how does the debate look?
    I can see Florimon's defense staying the same or slightly improving, but his offense is where I"m a little bit less optimistic. Some on this message board don't think he will even be able to put up a .300 OBP in 2014 and for all we know, that could be true.

    However, one area I believe Florimon can improve is his strike out ratio. If he strikes out less, then those numbers you posted are not unachievable even if they do appear to be a bit optimistic. And if those numbers are achieved, then obviously he would be a very good value @ $500,000 when you consider that his defense likely won't decline, but rather stay approximately the same or be slightly better and that Drew will likely cost at least $10m/year.

    I really don't think fans need to panic about signing Drew. There are options out there and there will be more over the next couple of years, some of which we have already discussed in this thread and some, which we don't even know about yet. I know the Twins have the $ to spend, but it really won't destroy the team if Florimon is given another chance and / or other options are considered down the road (e.g. Hardy, international prospects etc).
    Last edited by Reider; 01-19-2014 at 02:16 AM.

  4. #243
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    I keep seeing the name Hardy mentioned as a potential replacement for the Twins SS. Logic tells me there is no way this would ever happen. I'm a huge fan of what Hardy has to offer on the field, but he was already fired once by the Twins. Some event or, some recognition of an unwanted character attribute must have occurred to precipitate this action. Certainly it wasn't a determination based on his field contributions.

    From my perspective, I have trouble even seeing what's debatable about Florimon VS Drew. The contribution a competent and confident SS brings to a team is vastly understated in all the metrics the beancounters rely on. I believe in hiring the best people available, proficiency and character. Drew's been a plus plus ML SS since he was 23 years old, if he's a decent man I'd love to see him on board.

    The only argument that I can see against Drew is the propensity of teams with relatively finite funds to not "waste" any money or minor league assets until they feel they are ready to make a run. I'm sure this is a significant consideration of the Twins.

  5. #244
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    The Twins should not be concerned about the pick or the money. They should be concerned about the years. A liability at this key position in 2016 with a large contract must be avoided. For the Twins whose key talent will be approaching mid 20s in 2016, a two year deal for Drew is necessary.

    Teams with a real shot at 90+ wins this year absolutely should risk the liability at the end of the contract.

    Florimon's defense is a reasonable stop gap until they find a long term solution.

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  7. #245
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    A lot of people are putting value into stolen bases based on the fact that Florimon stole a grand total of 16. 16! This isn't 30 or more player who never gets caught, though to his credit, he is between 70-75% and was slightly above the break even point so his stolen bases added some value, but frankly, it's minimal. It's one of the most overrated aspects of a player in the modern game despite the fact that there's plenty of research to show that a high success rate is necessary because making an out is so much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    A hypothetical for all to consider.
    And let's assume some offensive progression where he hits the rough averages of production he met during his full seasons in the minors (2007-2012).

    The numbers would look something like this:

    .249/.321/.354/.675OPS with 21Dbls/3triples/5HR/16Sb's

    Now, how does the debate look?
    We could also hypothetically assume that he's going to hit .330 with a .400 OBP, but it's unlikely. Of course, that's a stretch

    Florimon just doesn't have plate discipline and he got worse as he progressed through the minors -- not better, which has continued (though he's improved slightly from last year), I think it's a very rosy picture to expect his OBP to improve by 40 points.

  8. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    A hypothetical for all to consider.

    Florimon produces the same great defense as last season, possibly/probably even better just from his 2013 experience, coaching, etc. And let's assume some offensive progression where he hits the rough averages of production he met during his full seasons in the minors (2007-2012).

    The numbers would look something like this:

    .249/.321/.354/.675OPS with 21Dbls/3triples/5HR/16Sb's

    Now, how does the debate look?
    IMO, the big problem with this whole debate is the overrating of Florimon's glove. Maybe he can hit hit like Gagne next year, but that's setting the bar pretty low offensively and Gagne made up for his bat by being the best defender the Twins have had at shortstop in my lifetime. Bartlett is second. Florimon was better than what's been there the past couple of years, but that's akin to comparing a car to a Yugo. He was also somewhat inconsistent, and ranked anywhere from average to above average in metrics. He was also a pretty big negative sabermetrically in the two partial seasons before that. Call me crazy, but is it a little premature to be calling someone elite with that resume?

    And I'm not saying Drew is the answer, because a team that's looking two to four years down the road shouldn't be looking to sign a shortstop on the wrong side of 30 to a long-term deal. But I'm really skeptical the long-term answer exists in the Twins system right now.

  9. #247
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALessKosherScott View Post
    IMO, the big problem with this whole debate is the overrating of Florimon's glove. Maybe he can hit hit like Gagne next year, but that's setting the bar pretty low offensively and Gagne made up for his bat by being the best defender the Twins have had at shortstop in my lifetime. Bartlett is second. Florimon was better than what's been there the past couple of years, but that's akin to comparing a car to a Yugo. He was also somewhat inconsistent, and ranked anywhere from average to above average in metrics. He was also a pretty big negative sabermetrically in the two partial seasons before that. Call me crazy, but is it a little premature to be calling someone elite with that resume?

    And I'm not saying Drew is the answer, because a team that's looking two to four years down the road shouldn't be looking to sign a shortstop on the wrong side of 30 to a long-term deal. But I'm really skeptical the long-term answer exists in the Twins system right now.
    Gagne is one of my top all-time Twins, but my eyes told me that Florimon (after a slow start in April) was better defensively than Gags, who many years after played here has now become the gold standard for defense (I don't recall that when he played here). I think Florimon was in the top quartile defensively and that is worth a lot. However, his offense is pretty bad. I hold out little hope for him ever becoming more than an acceptable #9 hitter (I'd guess a ceiling of .670 OPS).

    I agree that if the Twins are looking for Pedro's replacement, it should be somebody who will be hitting his peak in the years to come and it probably will have to come from outside the organization.

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  11. #248
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Great points, all around. Man, I'm going to have to take out a loan to pay for all of these steak dinners!

  12. #249
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    Bartlett mentioned as the second best defensive shortstop the Twins have ever had, I wonder about that one. Not that he was not good but there have been many other shortstops over the years who were very good fielders and would rank higher than Bartlett I would think. At this time I cannot name them but you folks know of some of them I am sure.

  13. #250
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Bartlett mentioned as the second best defensive shortstop the Twins have ever had, I wonder about that one. Not that he was not good but there have been many other shortstops over the years who were very good fielders and would rank higher than Bartlett I would think. At this time I cannot name them but you folks know of some of them I am sure.
    He qualified his statement as "best of his lifetime". I still find his choice interesting, as the obvious second place shortstop is Juan Castro.

  14. #251
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    Bartlett could be yet, as he was taking ground balls at 3rd, then ss, then 2nd base this morning. He told someone the other night he'd like to be a coach in this organization.

  15. #252
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    Why would not someone else besides Juan Castro be the obvious second place defensive shortstop. What about Leo Cardenas?

  16. #253
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Why would not someone else besides Juan Castro be the obvious second place defensive shortstop. What about Leo Cardenas?
    Or Zoilo Versalles. Although I agree Cardenas was much under rated.

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  18. #254
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    There surely must be some players missed here that played some great shortstop for the Twins over the years, aren't there?

  19. #255
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    Cristian Guzman...Lenny Faedo...Houston Jiminez...Roy Smalley...Danny Thompson...Jerry Terrell (once in a while)...Pat Meares...naw, I'll take Florimon (defensively).

  20. #256
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    He qualified his statement as "best of his lifetime". I still find his choice interesting, as the obvious second place shortstop is Juan Castro.
    Trolling :-)
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  21. #257
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    My Ranking: FWIW

    Gagne
    Versailles
    Hardy
    .
    Cardenas
    Florimon
    .
    Bartlett
    Guzman
    .
    .
    Smalley
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Castro
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  22. #258
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    How about the utility/shortstops?

    1. Nick Punto (2004-10, 238 games at SS)
    2. Ron Washington (1981-86, 307 games at SS)
    3. Denny Hocking (1993-2003, 190 games at SS)

  23. #259
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    My Ranking: FWIW

    Gagne
    Versailles
    Hardy
    .
    Cardenas
    Florimon
    .
    Bartlett
    Guzman
    .
    .
    Smalley
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Castro
    Defensively, I'd move Versalles down. He had great tools but made too many bad and unnecessary throwing errors. There was a very small window when he was a "steady" SS. I thought Cardenas was the best for a decent time increment--three years--and Hardy was fine but played only 2/3 of one year with the Twins. Until he suffered some injuries, Guzman was the whole package on defense. He was pretty steady but many a lot of "oh wow" plays as well. I think Smalley was very good, but lacked range. He had a very strong, true arm and positioned himself very well. The heavy legs betrayed him as time went on, but the Twins had him in his prime and he deserves to be highly considered. Bartlett was pretty good for a couple of years and Pat Meares was about average at everything.

  24. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Defensively, I'd move Versalles down. He had great tools but made too many bad and unnecessary throwing errors. There was a very small window when he was a "steady" SS. I thought Cardenas was the best for a decent time increment--three years--and Hardy was fine but played only 2/3 of one year with the Twins. Until he suffered some injuries, Guzman was the whole package on defense. He was pretty steady but many a lot of "oh wow" plays as well. I think Smalley was very good, but lacked range. He had a very strong, true arm and positioned himself very well. The heavy legs betrayed him as time went on, but the Twins had him in his prime and he deserves to be highly considered. Bartlett was pretty good for a couple of years and Pat Meares was about average at everything.
    Smalley was a good shortstop with limited range, until he had too many back injuries. I thought Hardy had a great arm, and caught what was hit to him, but I didn't think his range was great.

    Guzman might the most similar to Florimon in the field, for me. I barely remember Versailles and Cardenas.

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