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Thread: Not Hearing Much About Worley

  1. #81
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I think it is nearly a given that at least one guy in the Opening Day 2014 bullpen is viewed as a starter who lost out in the competition in Spring Training. I think that is healthy for the ball club and won't hurt the player or players long term. What such a move will do is limit the bullpen to six pitchers (counting Duensing and Swarzak) who are considered relievers. It may open up the possibility of a trade for an outfielder or perhaps an LH hitting infielder who could take at-bats from Plouffe or Dozier.

  2. #82
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    The main argument has fell victim to one persons derailing. LEts hit the actual main points:

    1) the odds of Correia's spot on this team being subject to competition is unlikely. so I don't believe that these guys are going to have to beat him out, I believe the Twins (fairly or not) don't view him as on the bubble. That leaves four guys for one spot.

    2) This is not an indictment of "too much pitching" or the offseason. Write those three guys in as locks. the problem is Correia's marginal butt blocking young, higher upside gambles. especially since its unlikely we can keep all of them. There are a finite number of spots for guys with no options. SO the real issue is would you rather have Correia or Diamond/Worley.

    3) if stashing them in the bullpen was an option...fine. But again I doubt the Twins construct their pen with that many long relief guys. Again I am approaching this practically not fantasy.

    4) This is about Correia costing us a good young player. SO trade him, cut him, mysteriously lose him in the woods, replace him with Arroyo or someone better, or anything that removes him from blocking a better gamble.
    GIve me youth and upside 100% of the time. Especially when your main argument is that this young player had one tough year of adjustments likely caused by injury in both cases. Its the absolute worst kind of selling low.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 12-25-2013 at 07:24 AM.

  3. #83
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    So basically your entire point is focused on Correia?

    Re #3) I think you should direct your ire at the rest long relief only guys if there isn't room to stash one of these pitchers in the bullpen for 1-2 months.

    I also don't think any of these guys have much upside. Maybe they become younger versions of Correia but that doesn't seem very valuable.

  4. #84
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    So basically your entire point is focused on Correia?

    Re #3) I think you should direct your ire at the rest long relief only guys if there isn't room to stash one of these pitchers in the bullpen for 1-2 months.

    I also don't think any of these guys have much upside. Maybe they become younger versions of Correia but that doesn't seem very valuable.
    I've been focused on Correia from step one, but no one has approached replying with any degree of fairness to my point so it's been lost.

    im not convinced Diamond has a lot of upside but I would've said the same of Dozier not long ago. It's dangerous to give up on young players who had one dip in performance due to injury. Especially when they already have had major league success.

    In the name of upgrades (Nolasco) or guys with rebound upside (Pelfrey and Hughes) I'm not concerned. When the roster squeezes and Correia survives at their expense? Yeah, that's a problem.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    . SO trade him, cut him, mysteriously lose him in the woods
    For a fee I could "lose" Correia so that even B-Ref couldn't find him.
    Chris Hermann solves everything. hat tip to jokin

  6. #86
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    "This is about Corriea costing us a good young player."

    I thought it was about costing Worley, Deduno, or Diamond.

    //ba dum tsssshh//
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  8. #87
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    If a guy is good enough to start but is pushed into the pen, its likely he'll put up better k% and velocities (see "rule of 17"). That is the ideal scenario IMO. The Cardinals do this practically every year.

  9. #88
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    If a guy is good enough to start but is pushed into the pen, its likely he'll put up better k% and velocities (see "rule of 17"). That is the ideal scenario IMO. The Cardinals do this practically every year.
    That may ultimately be the case, but I don't think right now is that time. We have at least one more lost season to audition these guys.

    i know what Correia is - marginal to bad. I will take one more chance with a 25/26 year old to be better than that. Next year with Meyer and a better offense would be a different story.

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  11. #89
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I've been focused on Correia from step one, but no one has approached replying with any degree of fairness to my point so it's been lost.

    im not convinced Diamond has a lot of upside but I would've said the same of Dozier not long ago. It's dangerous to give up on young players who had one dip in performance due to injury. Especially when they already have had major league success.

    In the name of upgrades (Nolasco) or guys with rebound upside (Pelfrey and Hughes) I'm not concerned. When the roster squeezes and Correia survives at their expense? Yeah, that's a problem.
    Selective reading. Early on, I wrote that he led the team in innings pitched and led all starters in WAR last year. That is not a worthless player.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  13. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    That may ultimately be the case, but I don't think right now is that time. We have at least one more lost season to audition these guys.

    i know what Correia is - marginal to bad. I will take one more chance with a 25/26 year old to be better than that. Next year with Meyer and a better offense would be a different story.
    Package him and a couple of bubble players along with a prospect or 2 and trade for JJ Hardy

  14. #91
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    My only concern is losing one or two of those three for nothing. If they have value it would be nice to get something for them. Lets make sure that they have little value before dumping them. I honestly don't care if they stash them in the bullpen this year as I see only marginal improvement this year anyway. We need to find out what players have value for the Twins in the future soon as there should be greater talent knocking on the door for the next couple of years and with any luck into the future.

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  16. #92
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Selective reading. Early on, I wrote that he led the team in innings pitched and led all starters in WAR last year. That is not a worthless player.
    You do realize why citing any staring pitcher who lead our team in anything last year is a comical argument right?

  17. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    It seems like just yesterday our fine GM was accused of being pathologically adverse to taking risks in the free agent market and now we are being told Worley, Diamond, and Deduno were the answer all the time.
    I reread my post and you have my personal apologies for my somewhat snarky Reply. No offense was meant. I could have phrased things better. What you had to say was valid we just disagree in some respects.

  18. #94
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    You do realize why citing any staring pitcher who lead our team in anything last year is a comical argument right?
    You have to start somewhere. It is not comical to start with the best starter on the team last year as a building block for your rotation this year. He's still likely the fifth starter. And I could see him getting moved in June. But two months of him is not going to kill anything. You must really be happy with the rest of the team if this is your biggest concern.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  19. #95
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Selective reading. Early on, I wrote that he led the team in innings pitched and led all starters in WAR last year. That is not a worthless player.
    Depends on how you are counting...

    That said, I'd rather have the Twins have Correia out there every 5th day than Diamond. Worley can get the 5th starter job and Deduno will likely start on the DL and with a month of rehab or so, all will play out come trading deadline. I don't think that Correia will be a Twin come August first, might actually be gone much earlier, which will open the door for Gibson and/or a rehabbed and healthy Deduno to replace him. And if Correia pulls a Marquis/Blackburn earlier, the Twins can act accordingly...

    I really don't see much conflict here, other than potentially having Diamond start the season in the pen as the mop up guy, pushing Swarzak to the Pressly/Roenicke role, which might not be a bad thing IMHO...
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  20. #96
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    So basically your entire point is focused on Correia?

    Re #3) I think you should direct your ire at the rest long relief only guys if there isn't room to stash one of these pitchers in the bullpen for 1-2 months.

    I also don't think any of these guys have much upside. Maybe they become younger versions of Correia but that doesn't seem very valuable.
    I agree with kab on pretty much everything in this thread.

    1. Stashing a guy in the pen for a couple of months won't hurt anyone.

    2. Stashing Gibson in AAA for a couple of months won't kill him.

    3. If all of Pelfrey, Correia, et al work out, fantastic. Trade one and then plug in a new guy.

    4. It's likely that many or all of these pitchers will fail and the theoretical "depth" will be gone by June 1.

    5. Do those guys really have a higher upside than Correia? I don't think they do. They're younger and cheaper, for sure... But at the core, Diamond and Worley are pretty much the same guy as Correia. That doesn't mean you discard them for no reason but it also doesn't mean you reserve a rotation spot for them, either.

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  22. #97
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Do those guys really have a higher upside than Correia? I don't think they do. They're younger and cheaper, for sure... But at the core, Diamond and Worley are pretty much the same guy as Correia. That doesn't mean you discard them for no reason but it also doesn't mean you reserve a rotation spot for them, either.
    This appears to be the point people are missing. Among Correia, Deduno, Worley, Diamond, and Gibson there is only one with a guaranteed spot. The rest have to compete and may end up being lost for nothing. The one with the guaranteed spot is the one on a scholarship that I'd like to see lost in the woods somewhere.

    Diamond and Worley have both shown, over significant periods in the majors, the ability to be a better pitcher than Correia. Now, while we have another lost season ahead of us, is the time to be seeing if that was a fluke or not.

    Correia as a Twin is toast after this year. We'd be wasting our time rolling him out again. At least in Worley/Diamond/Deduno/Gibson we are answering questions about the future. Which, strangely, some in here seem to be all about in one thread and then completely flipped in this one.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 12-25-2013 at 01:42 PM.

  23. #98
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    This appears to be the point people are missing. Among Correia, Deduno, Worley, Diamond, and Gibson there is only one with a guaranteed spot. The rest have to compete and may end up being lost for nothing. The one with the guaranteed spot is the one on a scholarship that I'd like to see lost in the woods somewhere.

    Diamond and Worley have both shown, over significant periods in the majors, the ability to be a better pitcher than Correia. Now, while we have another lost season ahead of us, is the time to be seeing if that was a fluke or not.

    Correia as a Twin is toast after this year. We'd be wasting our time rolling him out again. At least in Worley/Diamond/Deduno/Gibson we are answering questions about the future. Which, strangely, some in here seem to be all about in one thread and then completely flipped in this one.
    And I can almost guarantee that those guys will get an extended look this season, whether it be through injury or trade.

    In situations such as these, the decisions tend to make themselves over the course of a season.

    If the Twins have a suitor for Correia, sure, trade the guy. I can get behind that. If they don't, that's okay, too.

    This team has been burned by one of the worst MLB rotations in three consecutive seasons. There's nothing wrong with saying "enough" and trying to field a rotation that isn't awful. And the way to do that is to have "too many guys" on the roster, knowing that some will fail.

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  25. #99
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Worley has one good season that came in 2011 and he only pitched 132 innings. Scott Diamond had one good year two years ago. Deduno looked pretty good when healthy last year, but we don't know how healthy he will be to start the season. Correia isn't being given a spot in the rotation because he is "on scholarship." He likely has a spot because he was our best pitcher last year while Diamond and Worley were awful. I doubt we just lose the out of options guys for nothing if they give the staff a reason to be on the team.
    I couldn't be a player because of bad eyesight, so I decided to be an umpire instead.

  26. #100
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And I can almost guarantee that those guys will get an extended look this season, whether it be through injury or trade.
    One of them likely will if we can put Deduno on the DL to start the year and Gibson gets a ticket to AAA. I don't like that basically Gibson has zero chance of making the rotation at this point, but let's take a look at the roster.

    Assume we have a 13 man pitching staff: The four pitchers that have a spot (again, whether you agree or disagree they should, they do) and the one open spot. The other 8 are eaten by: Perkins, Duensing, Burton, Fien, Swarzak, Pressley, Thielbar, and one other spot. I think we can assume the Twins will probably bring in some other savvy pickups to compete with the bottom tier of that pen. Could they hide someone in one of those spots?

    Maybe, but are you actually going to see their best then if they've sat in the pen working once every 10 days and then throw them into the rotation? That's just pulling another Parmelee on two pitchers that could be part of the future.

    If the difference between this rotation being not-awful is dumping Correia for Worley - then I have a newsflash for you - we'll still be awful. Correia has such a low ceiling for those guys to surpass, why not risk that they can be that good with the chance they could be much better? (Because, again, at ages under 27, they've already done that!)

    That is PRECISELY the kind of risk you should take when you're still in a rebuild and it's precisely the same argument you're making in another thread. The difference is people have gotten so worked up about the pitching lately (for good reason) that they're losing sight of good practices.

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