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Thread: Article: Twins Trade Doumit to Braves

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter
    Which by definition should mean "Not solid whatsoever".

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by goulik View Post
    My only concern with your evaluation is lumping Correia in with Blackburn and Diamond. We know Correia is better than Blackburn and I would take a young Correia type pitcher who could pitch 200 innings for the next 6 years on the cheap for Doumit. Blackburn, no! Diamond is still partially a question mark but leaning more Blackburnish ATM... I'm rooting for a Correia type from this guy though. Not great but that's a serviceable return.
    You overrate Correia. he's a 4.50 career ERA pitcher (almost always in NL pitcher friendly parks) that has pitched 198 innings once. Blackburn was actually better during his 2 good seasons and then he fell apart. That's what happens to these fringy MLB'ers.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by goulik View Post
    My only concern with your evaluation is lumping Correia in with Blackburn and Diamond. We know Correia is better than Blackburn and I would take a young Correia type pitcher who could pitch 200 innings for the next 6 years on the cheap for Doumit. Blackburn, no! Diamond is still partially a question mark but leaning more Blackburnish ATM... I'm rooting for a Correia type from this guy though. Not great but that's a serviceable return.
    Aces barely pitch 200 innings in a season now. Correia hasn't done it (came close in 2009). He may very well be better than Blackburn, but not by much. I think it's very fair to lump him in with Blackburn and Diamond.

  4. #204
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    What exactly did we think could get for Doumit, an ace, a high upside teenager? Just the other day people were ready to just DFA him. The return wasn't great because his value wasn't that great.

    I don't know what TR is doing though because he has a lot of soft tossers and no place to use them to try and gain value for them. Can we trade Diamond, Albers, Worely for anything or do they get waived or DFA'd? If we lose the other guys for nothing then getting Gilmartin doesn't make a lot of sense other than he is younger and has the flexibility of options. We have Pat Dean and several other soft tossers on the way so not sure we needed another one. We just gave up a 24 year old pitcher (Hendricks) for nothing so not sure we gain prospect wise here.

    This trade really seems more about staying even and clearing roster space. We don;t need another pitcher with Gilmartins skill set and neither do most teams. The Braves got rid of something they didn't want and don't need and so did the Twins. It was a good match. Nothing more too it than that.

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  6. #205
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post

    We don;t need another pitcher with Gilmartins skill set and neither do most teams. The Braves got rid of something they didn't want and don't need and so did the Twins. It was a good match. Nothing more too it than that.
    The Twins DO need somebody with Gilmartin's skill set to be successful. From my point of view, the Twins added another candidate to the ranks of "lefthanded not overpowering". None of those guys is established as a major league starter. Now, between Diamond, Albers, Johnson, and Darnell they have added another guy with a chance. Further, he's not on the 40-man and will have options, so his "window" for establishing himself is open for a while. It wouldn't stun me at all to see Gilmartin get between 50 and 100 starts for the Twins. As a point of reference, here are four Twins starters of recent vintage and their number of starts for the Twins: Scott Baker (162), Francisco Liriano (130), Kevin Slowey (90), and Boof Bonser (60).
    Last edited by stringer bell; 12-19-2013 at 09:23 PM. Reason: More information

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  8. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter
    I wouldn't say that. He was a top 5 prospect in the Braves system prior to pitching through some arm problems last year. None of the other lefties you are apparently referring to have ever been much in the way of prospect rankings.

    What does Gilmartin have that they don't have? When healthy, he has swing-and-miss stuff. His fastball touches 93 and sits in the low 90s, which makes his above-average change and slider effective. He doesn't need to be as fine as the others, but he is capable of it.

    Diamond, Darnell and Albers sit in the high 80s, which makes their average secondary pitches hitable when they are not located in just the right spots.

    I don't think Gilmartin will be better than a #4 starter. But his upside is 3/4. In my book, he is the best lefty starter in the Twins system who pitched above A ball last year. I would rank Thorpe and Gonsalves ahead of him. He's a notch above Sulbaran in my book, being older, more advanced and possessing a more complete arsenal. I would put him at 14 in the Twins system, with Thorpe ranked 8th, Gonsalves ranked 10th and Sulbaran 19th.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Camp_Shocker View Post
    Speaking of Levi Michael... What is he doing for the organization? I never liked that draft pick anyways.
    Playing serviceable D at High A but now blocking prospects like Polanco. I have to think he gets moved up to AA this year just because of the investment. Not because he deserves it.

  11. #208
    Here's a thought.
    What happens if Diamond/Deduno/Worley don't pitch well enough to make the 25 man roster as a starter? Long relief? If they can't pitch well enough to earn a rotation spot, how likely are they to be able to take the long relief spot from Swarzak? At this point he seems to have the advantage over them.

    So what happens to them? They are out of options. Worse case scenario is the Twins lose them all when they have to be DFA'd and waived.

    That is where Gilmartin's value comes in. He can be stashed at Rochester with all of the other pitchers that have options remaining. It appears this trade is looking to the probable loss of three high level pitchers from the organization. It is highly unlikely all three make the team. Gilmartin is the back up plan.

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  13. #209
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    "Alleged right fielders".

    What an apt description of the Twins current roster.

    I nearly split a gut laughing at this
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Richard View Post
    I nearly split a gut laughing at this
    Come now. Arcia is 21 years old. He's the youngest prospect to come up and perform at the major league level since Mauer. I think we can cut him a little slack on his first partial year in the majors.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Come now. Arcia is 21 years old. He's the youngest prospect to come up and perform at the major league level since Mauer. I think we can cut him a little slack on his first partial year in the majors.
    Correction, he's 22. Still he had an OPS+ of 102 as a rookie after having a career minor league OPS of .915, including .955 in AA as a 21 year old and 1.020 at AAA as a 22 year old. In short, he's the best hitting prospect to land on the Twins since Morneau. By the numbers, he's even better. And he plays a decent right field.

    Right field is not one of the positions I worry about on this team, short or long term.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  16. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    The Twins DO need somebody with Gilmartin's skill set to be successful. From my point of view, the Twins added another candidate to the ranks of "lefthanded not overpowering". None of those guys is established as a major league starter. Now, between Diamond, Albers, Johnson, and Darnell they have added another guy with a chance. Further, he's not on the 40-man and will have options, so his "window" for establishing himself is open for a while. It wouldn't stun me at all to see Gilmartin get between 50 and 100 starts for the Twins. As a point of reference, here are four Twins starters of recent vintage and their number of starts for the Twins: Scott Baker (162), Francisco Liriano (130), Kevin Slowey (90), and Boof Bonser (60).
    Yeah I was a little harsh and I hope Gilmartin turns out to be really good. The scouts were high on him until the injury. It is just that we seem to have so many pitchers like him or better already at AAA. We have several pitchers coming up and it looks like we might have to essentially throw away some guys which makes me question the move somewhat. I am no scout and I trust the Twins know what they are doing but it does make me question what the plan is.

  17. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Correction, he's 22. Still he had an OPS+ of 102 as a rookie after having a career minor league OPS of .915, including .955 in AA as a 21 year old and 1.020 at AAA as a 22 year old. In short, he's the best hitting prospect to land on the Twins since Morneau. By the numbers, he's even better. And he plays a decent right field.

    Right field is not one of the positions I worry about on this team, short or long term.
    I don't think anyone is down on Arcia... I think the joke was more regarding defense, and Arcia does have some work to do there...

    Agree with you though on him. I think he's going to have some all star seasons as he matures. I'm looking forward to having him bat next to Sano for quite some time. A front five of Buxton, Mauer, Arcia, Sano, and Rosario is drool worthy, and that ignores potential above average contributions from Pinto, Dozier, and Hicks.

  18. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    Yeah I was a little harsh and I hope Gilmartin turns out to be really good. The scouts were high on him until the injury. It is just that we seem to have so many pitchers like him or better already at AAA. We have several pitchers coming up and it looks like we might have to essentially throw away some guys which makes me question the move somewhat. I am no scout and I trust the Twins know what they are doing but it does make me question what the plan is.
    Some of these guys were going to be thrown away regardles. Here's the problem as I see it. Diamond, Worley, Deduno, Gilmartin, and Darnell all have in my opinion the potential to be 3/4 guys (though I think Deduno if he figures out how to control his fastball could be better). The odds of that happening are slim, but I think better than people realize, I wouldn't be surprised if one or two succeeds. With Darnell and Gilmartin, both can be kept for quite some time, but decisions are going to have to be made on Diamond, Worley, and Deduno sooner than later. The wildcard here is Gibson, who I think can be more like a 2/3 guy once he figures things out.

    Given that the Twins will not be winning the central in 2014, I have to think that they are planning on finding a home for KC at some point. I have no doubt that several of these guys will see time due to injury and what not, but with Meyer and May coming up the pipe and certainly deserving spots, I think they Twins are keeping most of these as filler and potentially trade bait should they succeed.

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  20. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Correction, he's 22. Still he had an OPS+ of 102 as a rookie after having a career minor league OPS of .915, including .955 in AA as a 21 year old and 1.020 at AAA as a 22 year old. In short, he's the best hitting prospect to land on the Twins since Morneau. By the numbers, he's even better. And he plays a decent right field.

    Right field is not one of the positions I worry about on this team, short or long term.
    Easy there, tiger. I made no assertions about anyone, Arcia included. Though I do appreciate your diligence in digging up Arcia's minor league batting numbers. For what it's worth, Arcia played only 29 games in RF for us, while Parm and Doumit logged 68 and 32 respectively.

    Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about their defense by going back to their minor league OPS numbers
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  21. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    Which by definition should mean "Not solid whatsoever".
    This trade is still a solid win even if the "not solid whatsoever" guy never makes a single appearance in MLB (as is true of most "prospects" anyway), so I guess I don't see how it matters unless we're just debating the merits of our prospect evaluation.

  22. #217
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Ok, regarding Deduno, Worley, and Diamond, they are all out of options and it is a given that all of them won't be in the rotation this April. As was speculated on the blog "Moves to Come?" by J-Dog Dungan, I would expect one or two of those three to be moved. Trading for one of Houston's backup catchers might be a win for both sides--perhaps Diamond for Corporan and a non-roster prospect? It also wouldn't surprise me to see Samuel Deduno start the season on the Disabled List, perhaps even the 60-day. The acquisition of Kris Johnson and now Gilmartin makes Albers and Diamond more expendable.

  23. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Correction, he's 22. Still he had an OPS+ of 102 as a rookie after having a career minor league OPS of .915, including .955 in AA as a 21 year old and 1.020 at AAA as a 22 year old. In short, he's the best hitting prospect to land on the Twins since Morneau. By the numbers, he's even better.
    And this makes him a good defender....how?

    Arcia had all the look of a future DH when he was in the field last year. I hope for a dramatic improvement, but what we saw was awful.

  24. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Correction, he's 22. Still he had an OPS+ of 102 as a rookie after having a career minor league OPS of .915, including .955 in AA as a 21 year old and 1.020 at AAA as a 22 year old. In short, he's the best hitting prospect to land on the Twins since Morneau. By the numbers, he's even better. And he plays a decent right field.

    Right field is not one of the positions I worry about on this team, short or long term.
    Sorry, but not by any stretch of the imaginiation does Arcia play a decent right field. To put things in their proper perspective, Delmon Young was a better RF than Arcia. (And Delmon only got worse in the OF as the years went by, not better).

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  26. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Sorry, but not by any stretch of the imaginiation does Arcia play a decent right field. To put things in their proper perspective, Delmon Young was a better RF than Arcia. (And Delmon only got worse in the OF as the years went by, not better).

    My impression after watching way too many Twins games last year is that Arcia was perhaps a little better than Doumit in the OF, but that's about it. I've seen worse (I lived in the Bay Area when Canseco and Chili Davis were both playing left field for their teams), but not many. He's got a ways to go to be adequate.

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