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Thread: Question on Options

  1. #1

    Question on Options

    I've done some reading on baseball transactions, but have a couple questions on players that are out of options. Here's the scenario:

    Team A wants to move a player to the minors who is out of options, Team A puts the player on waivers, and he is claimed by team B. Team B then tries the player out on the big league squad for a while, and like Team A decides they want the player in the minors, so they have to put him on waivers.

    Now for the quesitons...
    1. How long must team B wait before putting the player back on waivers?
    2. Can team A claim the player back?


    What I'm getting at with question 2 is this... say you've got an out-of-options player with a lot of upside who for whatever reason isn't a fit on any major league roster (like Vance Worley if he has a really bad start to the year). Multiple teams that want this player in their system, but no one wants him on the 25 man roster. How does this get sorted out? Say the Twins are Team A and Worley is the player. Could the Twins get Worley back and put him in the minors if he were claimed and subsequently waived by another team?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssuperdave View Post
    I've done some reading on baseball transactions, but have a couple questions on players that are out of options. Here's the scenario:

    Team A wants to move a player to the minors who is out of options, Team A puts the player on waivers, and he is claimed by team B. Team B then tries the player out on the big league squad for a while, and like Team A decides they want the player in the minors, so they have to put him on waivers.

    Now for the quesitons...
    1. How long must team B wait before putting the player back on waivers?
    2. Can team A claim the player back?


    What I'm getting at with question 2 is this... say you've got an out-of-options player with a lot of upside who for whatever reason isn't a fit on any major league roster (like Vance Worley if he has a really bad start to the year). Multiple teams that want this player in their system, but no one wants him on the 25 man roster. How does this get sorted out? Say the Twins are Team A and Worley is the player. Could the Twins get Worley back and put him in the minors if he were claimed and subsequently waived by another team?
    I believe that Team B can waive a player pretty much immediately. Yes, Team A could re-claim the player after he is claimed and waived by Team B, but he would still have to clear waivers before he can be sent down.

  3. #3
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    I'm not totally sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is: the player still has 0 options. So yes, Team A can take him back, but they still have to keep him on the 25 man roster. If they want to send him down, they have to subject him to waivers again, and any team that wants him has to keep him on the 25 man roster. This happens over and over again until one team gets him through waivers.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I'm not totally sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is: the player still has 0 options. So yes, Team A can take him back, but they still have to keep him on the 25 man roster. If they want to send him down, they have to subject him to waivers again, and any team that wants him has to keep him on the 25 man roster. This happens over and over again until one team gets him through waivers.
    Interesting... I'm surprised the bolded part doesn't happen more often. It seems logical to me that there could be two teams that are both really interested in an out-of-options player but don't want to make room on the major league roster. So, they could just take turns claiming the player and trying to pass him through waivers, and the player could bounce back and forth between the teams until one of them finally gives up. I don't recall ever seeing that actually happen though.

    I suppose if a player is valuable enough for more than one team to want him this badly a trade would be worked out instead.

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    I think it's more common that a team claims him and then immediately tries to pass him through waivers, knowing that the original team still doesn't likely have room for him on their roster.

    But I'm speculating a little here. I don't know that I've ever seen a player go back to his original team from which he was waived. Maybe there is a rule against it.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    Didn't that just happen this summer with Adam Rosales? Oakland optioned him, Texas claimed him, Texas optioned him, Oakland claimed him, Oakland optioned him, and Texas claimed him and finally kept him on the 25 man roster.

    http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/...espnapi_public

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenser View Post
    Didn't that just happen this summer with Adam Rosales? Oakland optioned him, Texas claimed him, Texas optioned him, Oakland claimed him, Oakland optioned him, and Texas claimed him and finally kept him on the 25 man roster.

    http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/...espnapi_public
    Well, that settle it, I guess. Thanks.

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenser View Post
    Didn't that just happen this summer with Adam Rosales? Oakland optioned him, Texas claimed him, Texas optioned him, Oakland claimed him, Oakland optioned him, and Texas claimed him and finally kept him on the 25 man roster.

    http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/...espnapi_public
    Exactly right, only replace "optioned" with "placed on waivers".

  9. #9
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    Alex Brunett comes to mind as he went from the Twins to Jays to Baltimore then the Cubs

  10. #10
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Keep in mind also that, once he is out of options, the only way he can be sent to the minors (by any club) is to be outrighted (removed from 40-man roster). That can only happen to a player once in his career without his consent. After that, the player can choose to refuse the outright assignment and become a free agent.

  11. #11
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    Keep in mind also that, once he is out of options, the only way he can be sent to the minors (by any club) is to be outrighted (removed from 40-man roster). That can only happen to a player once in his career without his consent. After that, the player can choose to refuse the outright assignment and become a free agent.
    Hold it

    Untrue. He has to pass through waivers first to be outrighted. The only time a guy who is outrighted can elect to be a free agent is if he has 5 years in the majors (seniority clause.)
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  12. #12
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I understood that if a player was outrighted to the minors once, then made it to the majors, he couldn't be outrighted again without his consent. PJ Walters comes to mind as a guy who went through that scenario, also Clete Thomas.

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    It happens a lot. The Twins claimed Pedro Florimon a couple of years ago only to put him on waivers. And Alex Burnett definitely lived that scenario a lot last year.

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    I understood that if a player was outrighted to the minors once, then made it to the majors, he couldn't be outrighted again without his consent. PJ Walters comes to mind as a guy who went through that scenario, also Clete Thomas.
    Yes, a player outrighted twice in the same year can become a free agent.

    Recall Brian Dinkelman a few years ago. He got added to the 40 man roster and stayed for a few weeks. He was then DFAd, cleared waivers and was sent back to Rochester. He was added back to the 40 man roster for September. Following the season, the Twins DFAd him again. He was not yet to the point where he could become a 6-year minor league free agent, but he could become a free agent. He ended up re-signing with the Twins.

  15. #15
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Hold it

    Untrue. He has to pass through waivers first to be outrighted. The only time a guy who is outrighted can elect to be a free agent is if he has 5 years in the majors (seniority clause.)
    Can you direct me to a source for this? Not trying to doubt you, and I know that Wikipedia is at times an unreliable source, but it does say in a couple of places that a player can be outrighted only once without his consent. And, if he has 5 years MLB service, he must give consent before out outrighted even a first time.

    I would sincerely like to find some definitive source that explains all this, preferably from MLB or MLBPA itself, for my own interest.

    EDIT:

    Found another source that supports my original understanding.

    http://www.purplerow.com/2009/2/19/7...ions-part-thre

    "If a player does in fact clear waivers, he is outrighted to the minors. Though he has been removed from the 40-man roster, the player is still paid according to the terms of his guaranteed contract. A player can only be outrighted once in his career without his consent. His options on subsequent outrightings are as follows:
    1) Reject the assignment and become a free agent
    2) Accept the assignment and become a free agent at the end of the season if he’s not back on the 40-man roster."
    Last edited by IdahoPilgrim; 12-14-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  16. #16
    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    IdahoPilgrim is all over it.

    Another rule is that you can't option players with 5+ years of experience without their consent, even if they have all three options remaining. (Which is why you see NA under options on the R&P page).

    Regardless, players with 5+ years of experience have more rights than players without it.

  17. #17
    Yes, if a player with 5+ years is unclaimed, he can become a free agent, but at sme point having a minor league job is better than no job.

    If the Twins option a player, and, let's say, the Mets claim him, add him to the 40-man roster. They must keep him there. If they decide to waiver him (being out of options), any team AFTER he Mets in the pecking order get to claim the player, then it goes back to the top of the list again.

    A player with options can be sent to the minors as long as they stay on the 40-man. Some, teams try and sneak thru during busy times and fail (it happened to the Twins with Mike Restovich, with Pat Nehsek -- another example). When you are removed from the 40-man roster you can get a waiver claim. The team in question must keep the player on the 40-man, but does have the ability to option them to the minors, as long as they stay on the 40-man.

    Yes, Worley would be an interesting candidate. A team could claim him, but they would have to keep him and also pay him for whatever his contract is, remember that aspect, too.
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  18. #18
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    IdahoPilgrim is all over it.

    Another rule is that you can't option players with 5+ years of experience without their consent, even if they have all three options remaining. (Which is why you see NA under options on the R&P page).

    Regardless, players with 5+ years of experience have more rights than players without it.
    I remember that the Twins optioned Jason Marquis after he missed most of spring training because of his daughter's injury. They had to get permission from the player to do so, and I believe they agreed to recall him on a certain date.

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