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Thread: 2014 HoF ballot

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Had MLB network on while working yesterday morning and there was a certain HOF voter who said that he was very suspicious of Piazza being a PED user and the "acne on his back was the proof". I kid you not. Salem, MA circa 1692 type of evidence (google: Witch's Mark)
    It amazes me how many players are guilty until proven innocent. I really hope none of these writers ever get called for jury duty.

    "Oh, someone is accusing you of murdering a family of four because you were seen in the same neighborhood that day? Proof enough for me! GUILTY!"

  2. #162
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Couple of interesting facts against those 2 points:


    b. We all know the BBWAA. There is a little group called the BBA (Baseball Bloggers Alliance; full disclosure: I am part of it) of independent baseball bloggers who every year they vote for the HOF. Here is this year's vote (with a bit of info about previous votes.) Guess what? They voted in exactly who the writers voted in..
    So...the BBWAA should be ridiculed for voting in three players, but the BBA should get the job, because they voted in the same three players?
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    So...the BBWAA should be ridiculed for voting in three players, but the BBA should get the job, because they voted in the same three players?
    Nope. I think it should be an open fan vote with 75% cut off. The point was that a. you don't need to have covered baseball in the 70s to be able to make a determination for the hall of fame and b. there is just too much drama & personal agendas as is and opening it up will take care of it.

    Funny thing is that it might not matter at the end, since all of the deserving (and some more) players will end up in by the VC...

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomtints View Post
    I think the important question is, did the right guys get in? Yes.

    Who got one vote, who is boycotting PEDs, who didn't get in unanimously -- this is all noise. The system is working fine.

    Six people got in this year (including the three managers) -- this is a lot. Borderline too many, if you ask me.
    why is it too many? Raines and Biggio and others are better than other HoF, and "deserve" to be in....why is enshrining those who deserve it bad if it is a lot?

    Also, I don't get why people care all that much. A lot of "ink" is spilled over who gets a plaque in a musuem not all that many people visit.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  5. #165
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I feel bad for Biggio,he was ridiculously underrated as a player. He should've been in. If nothing else from somehow going from catcher, to elite 2B, to covering a massive CF. Crazy.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    My brain cramps every time I think of Mike Piazza not being in the HoF. Seriously. What the @&!$.

    Sure, he was a lousy defender. But damn, a career 143 OPS+? I don't care if he wore his mitt on his head. His bat gets him in no matter what.
    I agree, but at least Piazza looks close enough to eventually get in.

    Edgar Martinez put up a 147 OPS+ for a longer period than Piazza and he barely received 25%. Tim Raines should have already been in years ago. Barry Larkin is in and Alan Trammell is still on the ballot getting 20%? All crazy to me.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Also, I don't get why people care all that much. A lot of "ink" is spilled over who gets a plaque in a museum not all that many people visit.....
    I could probably spill a ton on ink on the why, but really the bottom line is $ (like most of the time.) Memorabilia, autographs, game-worn stuff. Lots of collectors out there want HOF collections and willing to pay top $ on it, so...

    Even a better reason not to let a few have a saying for who goes in and who does not...

  8. #168
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I would suggest the problem with Bonds isn't that he had a big head and muscles....it's that he magically transformed his whole physique in a very short time.

    Thomas was always a huge guy.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Brad Swanson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetank View Post
    Morris will have to make it in the Veterans Committee. Wonder if he pitched fewer complete games if that would have made his ERA and WHIP numbers better since managers today think 6 or 7 innings is enough.
    Not sure that would help him that much. Here's a link to his inning by inning splits. Innings 7-9 were better than 1-3 and 4-6.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...e.cgi?id=c9MAS

    If the extra innings affected his durability by season, his monthly splits would show it, but he actually got better as the year went on:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...e.cgi?id=Xf4Zf
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  10. #170
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    Still don't get the affinity of Twins' fans with Morris. The Twins made him the highest paid pitcher in the AL in 1991. He decided to go to Toronto next season for the same money the Twins offered him.

    And yes, there was that 1991 game seven. And yes, Morris lost to the Twins in '87 while wearing a Tigers' uniform. And including his postseason record, he won 22 and lost 12 games pitching for the Twins, but won 23 and lost 12 games pitching against the Twins.

    Yeah he hails from the Cities. So what?

  11. #171
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    This is how they should do it:

    Hall of Famers who are alive: 30% of the vote
    BBWWAAAAAAAA: 30% of the vote
    MLB Players/Managers/GMs with 10 or more service time in the major leagues (one way or another): 30% of the vote.
    Fans: 10% of the vote.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetank View Post
    For that matter why should Sosa and Palmeiro get way less votes than either 2 of them? They would both would be elected to the HOF if they retired in time before the scandal came out.
    I don't totally throw out the post steroid use stats but in my mind McGwire and Sosa were not anywhere near a path to the hall. McGwire was basically Josh Willingham from 27 years old on, and Sosa was basically Jason Kubel. Bonds belongs in the Ruth Mays Ted Williams wing of the Hall it is insane to vote Thomas in and not Bonds.

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  14. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetank View Post
    See the Dodgers beat writer not voting for anyone but Morris. Steroid era.
    It is the only sensible way to vote against Bonds. Lets get real Frank Thomas did steroids, players of that era owed it to the fans no excuses.

  15. #174
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    My annual Hall of Fame voting rant

    Love HOF debates, hate HOF voting. Here are the things that drive me nuts about the current voting body.

    Overvaluing postseason play and undervaluing longevity

    Every year I hear the baseball punditry hype the HOF candidacy of certain players for what they did in the postseason, then turn around and dismiss other guys as “compilers”. It makes no sense to me at all. It takes a truly special player to maintain a high level of play over the tough grind of a 162-game schedule year in and year out for more than a decade. But any decent major leaguer who happens to play on a good team can get hot for a couple of weeks in October. Look at your all-time leaders in any major stat. See many mediocre players near the top of the list? Now look at the list of guys who have won WS or LCS MVP award. Should we put Scott Brosius in the Hall?

    The “first ballot Hall of Famer” thing

    Either you think a guy is worthy of admission or you don’t. If you do, vote for him. If not, then don’t. But “I think he deserves to be in, but he should have to wait at least another year” is illogical and obnoxious. Hall of Fame voting is a difficult task that has devolved into a giant, sloppy mess thanks to things like this. If the voters believe in a tiered system where some guys receive higher honors than other, then that should be made official, and the voters should be allowed to vote on different levels of Hall of Famers.

    The “if you have to think about it, he’s not a Hall of Famer” argument

    Translation: I’m too lazy to put any thought or effort into this supposedly sacred process. This position is absurd on its face. Basically, if you believe this, you’re saying that there is no such thing as a borderline case. Reasonable minds can disagree about where the line should be drawn. But no matter if you draw it high or low, there will be guys who fall close to or on it.

    People who make silly votes shouldn't be voting

    I’m not even talking about token votes for fringe players, which is silly but relatively harmless. But if you’re one of those “I won’t vote for anyone who played in the 90’s” people, you shouldn’t be voting. You aren’t allowed to serve on a jury if you’ve already made up your mind that the defendant is guilty because it deprives him of the right to a fair and impartial trial. Same rationale applies here. It you’re not willing to give guys fair consideration, you should be decided their fate. Also, if you just make indefensible selections (e.g. voting for Larry Walker and Curt Schilling but not Greg Maddox or Frank Thomas), it should be the last ballot you cast.

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  17. #175
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    That's all dandy and fine, until you realize that there are a few back doors to the HOF that let and will let not worthy people in...

  18. #176
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    Feel bad for Biggio. 2 votes short, and several voters have said they felt he's worthy but didn't vote for him because of the max 10. (Jon Becker tweeted that he took Biggio off at the last minute in favor of Larry Walker - are you kidding me?).

    That shows you the process is broken. Last year he didn't get in because of the phony "first ballot hall of famer" standard. This year he got screwed because of the voting limit. So that's two years in a row where he's kept out because there are voters are not voting for him even though they think he deserves to be in.

  19. #177
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Still don't get the affinity of Twins' fans with Morris. The Twins made him the highest paid pitcher in the AL in 1991. He decided to go to Toronto next season for the same money the Twins offered him.

    And yes, there was that 1991 game seven. And yes, Morris lost to the Twins in '87 while wearing a Tigers' uniform. And including his postseason record, he won 22 and lost 12 games pitching for the Twins, but won 23 and lost 12 games pitching against the Twins.

    Yeah he hails from the Cities. So what?
    My response and overall opinion:

    First, my soapbox. It is ridiculous and incompetent to have a system where voters have 10 spaces to fill in deserving names, especially this year with so many great talents and proven producers, and fill in only 1, or a couple names. The whole steroid era thing aside and not being discussed, you can't look with an objective eye and intelligent mind and find at least a few of these great former multiple all star players and at leas say, "he might be deserving" (fill in the blank yourself) Jaque Jones got a vote for goodness sake! Lifelong Twins fan here who loved me some Jaque Jones when he played, but, a hall of fame vote? Really?

    Now to the main point. This is NOT directed toward anyone at all, just a frustrated response to those in charge of voting on these matters.

    I believe statistics/numbers help measure the value of a player in any sport. But I also believe we can comb through statistics with too fine a tooth at times. Baseball, like any sport, has different eras. And as such, each era must be considered unto itself. As an example, using the NFL, would QBs such as Tittle or Graham or Starr be hall of famers compared to Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino and others? Probably not.

    My belief in Morris as a HOFer is much like my feelings and arguments for Blyleven when he struggled to make it in. It has nothing to do with Morris hailing from MN, or the title he helped us win. It has to do with what he did, who he was, what he accomplished "in his era".

    What is an era in sports? That's hard to define. Let's say roughly a 10 to possible 15 year time frame where said player/athlete played and performed. Switching back to baseball, and Morris, you have to ask yourself; "was that player a star? When I think all star, premium player, guy who came through in the clutch and produced, guy I didn't want to face...was he one of those?" Numbers tell part of the story, but not all.

    Some would argue Morris's SO rate and ERA. I would argue 250+ plus wins, 170+ complete games in a time when the CG began to disappear, endurance, big game performance, and when you thought of a bulldog on the mound you didn't want to face in a big game, you thought of Morris. Thought most of the 80's and early 90's, when you thought of what an ACE was, you put Morris on that list.

    Again, statistics can only tell part of the story. When I think of a player who produced in a large fashion, who was one of the best of his era, multiple all star, a guy you wanted on your team but didn't want your team to face, that's a hall of famer.

  20. #178
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    It looks to me like Piazza and Biggio will make the Hall, probably next year. I think they're both deserving. Jeff Bagwell has HoF numbers IMHO. I've always thought that Raines belongs, too.

  21. #179
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP3700 View Post
    I agree, but at least Piazza looks close enough to eventually get in.

    Edgar Martinez put up a 147 OPS+ for a longer period than Piazza and he barely received 25%. Tim Raines should have already been in years ago. Barry Larkin is in and Alan Trammell is still on the ballot getting 20%? All crazy to me.
    Edgar Martinez is one of the glaring omissions in my mind. So is Piazza, but I think he's pretty much a lock for next year. Sometimes that's how these things go.

  22. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    It looks to me like Piazza and Biggio will make the Hall, probably next year. I think they're both deserving. Jeff Bagwell has HoF numbers IMHO. I've always thought that Raines belongs, too.
    I agree with all the sentiments here, but I don't think next year is necessarily a lock for Piazza. Biggio will probably pick up a bunch of votes from people who feel sorry for his close margin this time but Piazza isn't quite that close, and with Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Pedro Martinez, and I guess Gary Sheffield (I never really thought of him as a HOF type, but I'd totally forgotten he has over 500 HR), the ballot isn't getting any easier next year. Piazza's probably getting in at some point, but I'm not sure it's next year.

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