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Thread: 2014 HoF ballot

  1. #61
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Also, why doesn't Jeff Kent get more HOF buzz? He's only the best offensive 2B in MLB history who played an adequate 2B. he and Biggio, Joe Morgan, Roberto Alomar... those are the top guys, and Kent fits in with them.

    Then again, Lou Whitaker didn't stay on the ballot for more than one year (maybe 2?) and he was tremendous, so what do I know?

  2. #62
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Also, why doesn't Jeff Kent get more HOF buzz? He's only the best offensive 2B in MLB history who played an adequate 2B. he and Biggio, Joe Morgan, Roberto Alomar... those are the top guys, and Kent fits in with them.
    Rogers Hornsby, Charlie Gehringer, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Joe Morgan, Ryne Sandberg, Jackie Robinson, Bobby Doerr and the Twins' very own Rod Carew might disagree
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Also, why doesn't Jeff Kent get more HOF buzz? He's only the best offensive 2B in MLB history who played an adequate 2B. he and Biggio, Joe Morgan, Roberto Alomar... those are the top guys, and Kent fits in with them.

    Then again, Lou Whitaker didn't stay on the ballot for more than one year (maybe 2?) and he was tremendous, so what do I know?
    He is a fringy candidate and a complete jerk. As much as people want to make the ballot strictly about WAR there is a lot more to the HOF than just a simple one size fits all stat.

    My ballot although I could swap a half dozen candidates in at the bottom.

    Maddux - 2 no doubters
    Thomas

    Clemens - a no doubt top 5 pitcher in his era
    Bonds - same argument as Clemens

    Glavine
    Bagwell
    Biggio
    Piazza
    Raines
    Trammell - a completely forgotten about player that gets overshadowed on such an impressive list.

    I feel to generous voting for 10 but there are 2 no doubters along with 2 steroid users that were great players regardless. Additionally guys like Bagwell, biggio and Piazza should have already been voted in but are clogging the ballot. this first ballot election is special is a weak argument. If you want to have a special elite then have a 90% and higher club.

  4. #64
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    Based on the 20 posters who actually submitted a ballot so far, we would elect:

    Maddux (100%)
    Glavine (90%)
    Biggio (85%)
    Piazza (80%)
    Thomas (80%)

    Morris (years), Mattingly and Palmeiro (votes) are off the ballot. Kent, McGriff, McGwire, and Sosa are precariously close to falling off at 5%.

    Obviously 20 votes isn't a lot and we have different views from the members of the BWAA, but I think this is still instructive. I think Maddux and Biggio get in easily this year, Glavine probably does too, though it'll be close given it's his first ballot. Thomas has an outside shot, but again, it's his first ballot. I'd be surprised if Piazza actually made it in, I think he continues to get the PED suspicion treatment along with Bagwell. I would be shocked if Bonds or Clemens overcame their involvement with PEDs and were elected, which is borne out by this thread.

  5. #65
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Here are my 10, listed in rough order of personal conviction.

    • Barry Bonds
    • Greg Maddux
    • Roger Clemens
    • Jeff Bagwell
    •
    Curt Schilling
    • Mike Mussina
    • Alan Trammell
    • Tom Glavine
    • Craig Biggio
    • Tim Raines


    Guys I really wanted to vote for, but didn't have room.

    • Frank Thomas
    • Mike Piazza
    • Edgar Martinez
    • Larry Walker
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  6. #66
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    I appreciate the different view points people have on the HOF elections. Some think it should be cut & dry - your either a HOFer or not - on the 1st ballot, some like to vote in the cinches and ruminate a couple of years before they vote in the second tire of definite HOFers, and some will stonewall the players they think cheated.

    I like the way it works now and I believe it to be effective. The modern voting process leaves a vast area open to personal interpretation and I strongly feel that is important and effective on voting in the worthwhile players. Some players may be wrongly excluded, but no system is perfect, but to me, that is the price that is paid.

    Bonds and Clemens are two examples of players who I believe would have made it to the HOF without PED's, but after the fact, they always came off as arrogant ***holes, and individuals who were so desperate to have their legacy protected, that they isolated a countrywide fan base with their deception and self-obsession. They both faced legal ramifications, but both came out of it fairly decently.

    Maybe the OJ Simpson trial is a poor comparison, but Simpson was found innocent of murder in his state trail for murder, but he was found guilty in his civil suit trial.

    The HOF voting is Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens civil suit trial, and if they eventually lose it, that is justice served.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread. And sooooo debate ale I almost want to just stay out of it. Lol

    This class is overwhelming filled with all-star talent. And without being a cop-out, I truly believe you could make a serious argument for every player on this list as being worthy. (And I will explain further. Please be patient)

    The problem with selecting a member for any HOF is what criteria you use! Let's be honest, there really isn't any! People are affected by emotion as well as perception. It's not all about numbers.

    Just for a moment, indulge me and let me make some comparisons. Let's use the NFL for example. Gayle Sayers may have been the most electric and talented talent of his generation. But as we all know, his career was cut tragically short. Yet he is in the HOF and I will not debate his worthiness. And yet, using our own Vikings as an example, Paul Krause was a multiple all-pro and all-NFL player, the all time interception leader, and had to wait more than 20 years to be inducted. Mick Tingelhoff played on FOUR Super Bowl teams, never missed a start in his entire career, retired with the longest active streak in the history of the NFL at that time, and was elected to something like 6 pro bowls, as well as being elected all league 2-3 times. (Not taking the time to look ever fact) He is still waiting. Jim Marshall, years, consecutive games played, sacks, pro bowls, etc, still waiting. Perception?

    it has been said for years the Koufax made the HOF not for his career, but for his dominance over a period of time. And let's be entirely honest here, no matter how much we all loved Kirby Puckett and his smile, and his gold gloves and his bat, his career was cut tragically short. Do his actual numbers scream HOF? He might be the Gayle Sayers of his sport.

    Someone smarter and more in touch than me, might have been Costas, spoke about perception and dominance. In other words, someone who was dominant for their era of playing. A player that made you cringe to face. Someone who produced, and was considered at the top of the game for his time. Jim Rice as example?

    I'm 48. I watched all of these players in their prime. They were all excellent. And while I am not some stubborn or soap-box sportswriter, I do have trouble with roid candidates. And that is what makes lists like this all the harder. Do you simply, arbitrarily dismiss? What do you weigh to be fair?

    10 votes? OK. In no particular order.

    Maddux. Easy. Come on now.

    Raines. The second best lead off hitter of his generation.

    Clemons. Even if PED's gave him a few extra years of dominance, can anyone dispute his career to that point?

    Bonds. The poster child for not only PED's, but for also being a perpetual jerk. But again, let's be honest, he was probably a HOFer even before he discovered the cream. Just don't tell me he's the all time HR king. We all know that title still belongs to Mr. Aaron.

    Thomas. He was called the Big Hurt for a reason and his production more than backs it up.

    Morris. This is like Blyleven. Are you kidding me? When you think of dominant SP's of his era who else do you think of? 250 wins and 3 championships as the leader for 3 different staffs. You don't think this guy was dominant or made a difference? Oh, a 3.90 ERA in the steroid era. So you can penalize the hitters but not pitchers who had to pitch, with obvious success, against them?

    Biggio. Again, are you kidding me? Multiple all-star appearances, multiple gold gloves and silver slugger awards while playing 3 different positions over 19 years. Should really be automatic.

    Glavine. Do you have to ask why?

    Piazza. Probably the best hitting catcher in all of baseball. 'Nuff said.

    And now I'm stuck. Lee Smith, Alan Trammel, Fred McGriff, Edgar Martinez?

  8. #68
    I've never fully understood the he was a Hall of Famer without steroids argument. It sounds like an excuse, and I can personally can't separate Bonds or Clemens from Sosa or Palmeiro.

    What we would do is different than what the voters will do.

    My guess is Maddux, Biggio, and Glavine are chosen by the writers and Joe Torre by the Veterans committee.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Not the least bit happy with Clemons and his usage, denials and overall attitude. But my goodness could the man pitch. And it couldn't have been usage his whole career could it?

  10. #70
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Greg Maddux
    Frank Thomas
    Larry Walker
    Tim Raines
    Jeff Bagwell
    Tom Glavine
    Mike Piazza
    Craig Biggio
    Last edited by Shane Wahl; 12-01-2013 at 12:25 AM. Reason: forgot Piazza

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    but should it be a different case for everyone? In my mind, it really should be all of nothing. We can't assume the skinny types didn't do it because most of the guys that have failed tests are not the huge, power hitter types. I can't distinguish who did, or who didn't. You can't say "He's a good guy. He wouldn't." (Pettitte) You can't say he's a big power hitter or power pitcher so he must have.

    That's a big part of why I would just vote for guys with numbers.
    I understand where you are coming from. HOF voter Jayson Stark has a similar view as you. I don't think either one of us are wrong It's just a different opinion. In my mind I do think we should consider each case differently. I would not vote for players who took PED's and reward with a HOF plaque.
    This is what I mean by consider cases differently. Some players were caught and suspended(Rafael Palmero), some players have admitted using PED's but were never caught (Mark McGuire). Also I can argue some players would get in regardless if they took PED's or not (Bonds and Clemens). I think each voter has to weigh each case against the "character clause" that is on the ballot and decide how to vote.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Craig Biggio
    Frank Thomas
    Mark McGwire
    Greg Maddux
    Barry Bonds
    Tom Glavine
    Roger Clemens

    Until VERY recently, I was completely against the steroid era guys getting in. But, now I'm more of the mindset that everyone with influential numbers should get in. I reviewed Jack Morris's numbers and I just don't see how he deserves it (based on numbers). But, I realize he was a stud in big games. I think the above are the most deserving based on numbers. I am NOT a fan of Bagwell and I am probably unique in that aspect. I think striking out a ton is not a sexy stat, hence why I don't like him. I think Biggio and Maddux FOR SURE should be in and then from there...it's up to the voters and their opinions on steroids and other peripherals.

  13. #73
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    Maddux, Biggio and Thomas. Glavine in the future.

  14. #74
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smcginnity View Post
    I am NOT a fan of Bagwell and I am probably unique in that aspect. I think striking out a ton is not a sexy stat, hence why I don't like him.
    Here's something to consider.

    Bagwell's career strikeout rate was 16.5%.

    The league strikeout rate during his years in the league was 16.3%.

    For a power hitter that took a ton of pitches and drew a lot of walks, that's actually a pretty low strikeout rate. If anything his strikeout rate could be used as positive in his favor, rather than against him.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  15. #75
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Bagwell
    Biggio
    Bonds
    Clemens
    Glavine
    Mussina
    Piazza
    Maddux
    Thomas
    Walker

    Anybody up to adding up the Twins Daily ballots?
    Chris Hermann solves everything. hat tip to jokin

  16. #76
    Senior Member Double-A
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    Maddux
    Thomas
    Glavine
    Bonds
    Clemens
    Bagwell
    Biggio
    Morris
    Raines
    Piazza

    Really want to vote for Mattingly and Trammell knowing Bonds and Clemens are wasted votes in reality, but for this exercise I'll stick with my ten.

  17. #77
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    I'm surprised Glavine is close to unanimous. I certainly wouldn't have him on my ballot this year and probably not ever. He didn't have a particularly impressive peak and basically is a lock purely due to longevity and playing for good teams (and thus getting 300 wins). And really his whole career was a byproduct of umpires giving him strikes on pitches 6-8 inches outside at the knees.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    I'm surprised Glavine is close to unanimous. I certainly wouldn't have him on my ballot this year and probably not ever. He didn't have a particularly impressive peak and basically is a lock purely due to longevity and playing for good teams (and thus getting 300 wins). And really his whole career was a byproduct of umpires giving him strikes on pitches 6-8 inches outside at the knees.
    6-8 inches? really? wow...

    A lot of HOF pitchers are in because of longevity and accruing statistics.
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  19. #79
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    I'll concede that a Hall of Fame with a Jack Morris 10 inning world series game 7 shutout display and a Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa HR chase display could be a heck of a lot more interesting than one with say, Rafael Palmeiro... hitting a HR in another hopeless TX playoff loss.

    edit: Out of curiosity, has anyone actually visited the Hall? I have not.
    I have not, but I do know through pictures that there is a display of the 1998 HR chase and a Morris/Smoltz game 7 display. Those are really unrelated to the player being in the Hall.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    6-8 inches? really? wow...

    A lot of HOF pitchers are in because of longevity and accruing statistics.
    Did you not see him pitch? Glavine typically got an unbelievably wide strike zone; umpires at the time were calling outside pitches in general while not calling the top of the strike zone (MLB has made efforts in recent years to remedy this, with pitch tracking being a key component).

    But no one took advantage of it like Glavine, who quickly would find the furthest and lowest spot the ump would call, and then proceeded to throw 90%+ of his pitches to that exact spot. If he missed slightly he still got the benefit of the doubt. He was the epitome of Mazzone's 'never give in' philosophy, walking over 3 batters per 9 innings despite having perfect command of his pitches.

    Of course the Hall has members who only made it due to longevity. But all Glavine has is wins - his ERA, strikeouts, shutouts, etc. are not noteworthy. He pitched a full season's worth of playoffs, producing at the same level but going 14-16 against better competition.

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