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Thread: New to here... opinionated, but respectful.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    I will play nice, but I certainly have my views. I am pretty fed up with losing 90+ games and the "twins way." I put my money where my mouth is and b/c of it, I cancelled my season tickets.

    [...]

    A few thoughts:

    • Management has no real need to win -- the new ballpark will have nearly 3 million fans every year, because, the new park is so damn nice! We could easily become/are the Cubs of the AL (fans will show up no matter what)
    Welcome, OP! I appreciate the effort you put into your first post and the tone you aimed for (and frequently struck :P ). Attempting to keep with that tone, I do have a few questions for you based on your statements above.

    Before I begin: I understand and share your frustration with team performance and the results obtained on the field over the last three seasons. I think there are substantial holes in the way Gardy manages (platoons, for example) and some measure (though exactly how much is debatable) of the pitching failure rests on the shoulders of Anderson. With that being said, I reject a number of the statements you presented as factual. Most of those have been covered ad nauseum in thread and on the forum generally, so I'll direct this differently.

    Question 1: Do you believe that fans who continue to attend games at Target Field are complicit in the on field failures of the team?

    I apologize if this comes off accusatory, I just find disapproval of the inverse of your action to be the implied subtext (or occasional explicit text) I see when I come across posts like yours on various websites, forums and comment sections-and I'm wondering if you intend it as such.

    Also a note-The Twins haven't drawn more than 3 million fans in either of the last two seasons, according to BB-Ref, which I believe works off of box scores, which is paid attendance rather than in-stadium and thus inflating the numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    Perhaps the most egregious mgmt disaster is the treatement of Spanish speaking players. They do not have a Spanish speaking dugout coach!!! The twins daycare for players do not have a Spanish speaking staff member (I knew a former player who could not bring his family/child to the daycare on Sunday family day games b/c of this). Does the organization think they are still in 1965?! Do you really think a guy like Ervin Santana would come here on a fair market deal when he would be treated as such!? What about guys like Arcia, Sano, Rosario, Florimon and others... Is the organization doing all it can to help these players assimilate and be part of the organization and the community!?
    Question 2: Are you familiar with the language programs throughout the minor league system and in the GCL? Is providing players with a second language (a system that Arcia, Sano and Rosario would have all gone through-Florimon likely less so) an insufficient means of easing assimilation? What about the presence of bilingual teammates (Wilkin apparently served as unofficial translator for most clubhouse interviews for those who didn't feel their English was up to par last season)? What of Bobby Cuellar's presence in the clubhouse and during all periods except for the game itself? And I hope you to take this in the inoffensive, genuinely curious manner in which it's asked: Does he not count because he's not Latino?

    Question 3 (group topic!): Why is this discussion point so exclusively discussed in terms of Latin America?
    Do African American players need African American coaches? Are white players expected to not mesh as well with Latin coaches, or is it only an issue in the other direction? It's something that always strikes me about these conversations and I'd be curious on how others feel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    Maybe Pohlad was serious. Maybe he'll go talk to Garza himself. Or Kazmir. Because I cannot imagine TR doing anything involving a really good pitcher and free agency that would actually help build a future for this club.
    I usually enjoy your posts, Oldgoat, but I have to ask-why can't you imagine TR attempting to build a future for this club? From the way you've worded it, I can't tell if you feel like it's a matter of competence or a matter of apathy. I disagree with both, but for vastly different reasons, so I'm curious.

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Morris View Post
    I usually enjoy your posts, Oldgoat, but I have to ask-why can't you imagine TR attempting to build a future for this club? From the way you've worded it, I can't tell if you feel like it's a matter of competence or a matter of apathy. I disagree with both, but for vastly different reasons, so I'm curious.
    I'm not OldGoat but I think its the "involving a really good pitcher and free agency" part of his/her statement that is key here. It's not competence or apathy -- its personal philosophy and conservatism.

    Many of us have a hard time believing that TR is willing to part with the $$$ or years necessary to acquire a really good pitcher via the free agent route. And for those of us that feel that way, I'm pretty sure we'll have to see it to believe it.

  3. #43
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Again, the hat is full of names. Let me reach in for another… Oh you'll love this one: Philip Humber. For the Twins, he plays 2 seasons, 6.00+ ERA in 13 relief appearances. Then he was gone. Patrick Reusse called him the very worst pitcher on a 40-man major league roster.

    Two years later Humber shows up in Chicago and Don Cooper gets an entire good season out of him, 9-9 3.75 ERA ERA+ of 116.

    Did the White Sox turn Humber into Ron Guidry? no. Did Humber regress after 2011, yes he did, spectacularly. Did anyone on TD predict Humber would ever be a solid starter after he left? Doubt it. Were guys like Anderson or Gardenhire able to figure out Humber, even for just one season? Apparently not. Was another organization able to get something out of him? Apparently so. And that's the point.

    I'm not talking about guys like Lohse or Big Poppi from back in the day. I also doubt Liriano can duplicate that last season ever again. But Liriano is part of the pattern that's developing that the Twins refuse to acknowledge exists. We had what 8 ex-Twin all stars this year for goodness sake and people notice that.

    Want to keep going?
    If Phil Humber and his good three months is your opening salvo, yes, please keep going.

    Because I'll see your three months of good Phil Humber and raise you four months of Scott Diamond, 2 1/2 seasons of Nick Blackburn, and one year of Carl Pavano in return.

    Do I think Rick Anderson is responsible for all those good seasons? No, probably not. And that's my point.

    The Twins had a lot of former players appear in the All-Star Game this past season... The Twins also let loose a ton of good players in the past 4-5 years from their division-winning 2000s squads for age, health, and/or cost reasons.... and only one of those guys was a pitcher and improved after he left (ironically, that guy also spent half a season under Don Cooper, apparent savior of Phil Humber, and was a massive failure).

  4. #44
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    I'm not OldGoat but I think its the "involving a really good pitcher and free agency" part of his/her statement that is key here. It's not competence or apathy -- its personal philosophy and conservatism.

    Many of us have a hard time believing that TR is willing to part with the $$$ or years necessary to acquire a really good pitcher via the free agent route. And for those of us that feel that way, I'm pretty sure we'll have to see it to believe it.
    Hugh Morris - JB_Iowa pretty much nailed it.
    Obviously TR wants to build for the future. I just cannot believe he'll do it through a significant move in free agency. It's just not in his nature. It's like he will forever appear bewildered by the fact that the salary levels aren't where they were 2 or 3 years before.

    And if the Twins wait around for 3 or 4 really good pitchers to come through the minor leagues and get here at the same time, that could be a really long wait. Possibly centuries.

    The 1987 and 1991 teams were NOT all home grown. Our GM back then went out and got what the team needed rather than waiting for a tsunami of talent to appear from the minor leagues all at the same time.
    Last edited by Oldgoat_MN; 11-20-2013 at 09:07 AM.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

  5. #45
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    You know, I have no idea how good Rick Anderson is at his job, relative to the entire group of his peers. But I am confident of three things: first, not a single one of us posting on here could hold the baseball lunch pail of the people who decided that Rick Anderson was and remains qualified; second, for every pitcher one can cite as an example of Anderson's incompetence, another can easily cite an opposite example; and third, this is a really stupid and worthless exercise that proves absolutely nothing, and should result in workhouse time for anyone going there. Geez.

  6. #46
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    You know, I have no idea how good Rick Anderson is at his job, relative to the entire group of his peers. But I am confident of three things: first, not a single one of us posting on here could hold the baseball lunch pail of the people who decided that Rick Anderson was and remains qualified; second, for every pitcher one can cite as an example of Anderson's incompetence, another can easily cite an opposite example; and third, this is a really stupid and worthless exercise that proves absolutely nothing, and should result in workhouse time for anyone going there. Geez.
    My point.

  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I stopped paying attention the moment Phil Humber was brought up as some case against Gardy/Anderson. The same Phil Humber who had a 7.90 ERA last year.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I stopped paying attention the moment Phil Humber was brought up as some case against Gardy/Anderson. The same Phil Humber who had a 7.90 ERA last year.
    I'm eagerly awaiting someone to bring up Jason Marquis. It was probably Rick Anderson's fault that Marquis' seven year old daughter was in a near-fatal accident and put into a medically-induced coma smack in the middle of Spring Training.

    No way that's going to mess with a guy's head in the first two months of a season. Rub some dirt on it and walk it off, amirite?

  9. #49
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Again, the hat is full of names. Let me reach in for another… Oh you'll love this one: Philip Humber. For the Twins, he plays 2 seasons, 6.00+ ERA in 13 relief appearances. Then he was gone. Patrick Reusse called him the very worst pitcher on a 40-man major league roster.

    Two years later Humber shows up in Chicago and Don Cooper gets an entire good season out of him, 9-9 3.75 ERA ERA+ of 116.

    Did the White Sox turn Humber into Ron Guidry? no. Did Humber regress after 2011, yes he did, spectacularly. Did anyone on TD predict Humber would ever be a solid starter after he left? Doubt it. Were guys like Anderson or Gardenhire able to figure out Humber, even for just one season? Apparently not. Was another organization able to get something out of him? Apparently so. And that's the point.

    I'm not talking about guys like Lohse or Big Poppi from back in the day. I also doubt Liriano can duplicate that last season ever again. But Liriano is part of the pattern that's developing that the Twins refuse to acknowledge exists. We had what 8 ex-Twin all stars this year for goodness sake and people notice that.

    Want to keep going?
    Wait, we are talking about Phil Humber here? The same Phil Humber who spent most of his age 30 season in the PCL? The guy whose career ERA is north of 5.3? How is he a success story. Catching lightening in a bottle is not something a coach can teach. If Humber's 3 month surprise was due to coaching, then it should have lasted a lot longer than that.

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm eagerly awaiting someone to bring up Jason Marquis. It was probably Rick Anderson's fault that Marquis' seven year old daughter was in a near-fatal accident and put into a medically-induced coma smack in the middle of Spring Training.

    No way that's going to mess with a guy's head in the first two months of a season. Rub some dirt on it and walk it off, amirite?
    You, Dave, myself and others, we are talking right past each other. You don't sound like you're trying to hear anyone out - clarify if I am wrong. And you touched a nerve. Need to question how you handle Marquis's personal tragedy here. If you need assurance that a sentinel event like that can really affect an athlete in unpredictable ways, then I will assure you that it can. A comparison of Marquis's stats may or may not be appropriate here but the accident isn't. It's a relief that his story ended well.

    Background for anyone unfamiliar: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...-family-040312

    In any case I'm talking about individual guys as part of a broader recent pattern. Twins aren't competently managing their player personnel anymore. Period. Give Ryan credit for the bullpen, otherwise the rest of the team is mostly a wreck.

    Standing by Humber. He was no good. I didn't think he was good. You didn't think he was good. We agree! I get what you're saying - he regressed. The point is, another organization got something out of him we couldn't. I double checked for you and verified that 2011 wasn't strike shortened to three months. A whole season of solid starting pitching. But get this: Humber had a rough patch that year - go figure. Irrelevant that he didn't become Steve Carlton overnight. Irrelevant that other teams passed on him.

    Dickey same thing. Most organizations passed him over. Twins took a flyer then let him go. Another team picked him up and got something out of him. Did that not happen?

    JJ Hardy, he of the nagging injury, goes to Baltimore and has been healthy for three years. Bad timing, bad luck? Maybe the Orioles are getting Valencia figured out too, maybe not. Cuddyer succeeds in Colorado without even having to play second base. Twins still teaching Plouffe to play third base. These are recent examples of Twins mismanaging their personnel. Do the right things and you make your own luck. Dozier and Florimon are bright spots so let's leave them alone right? Yet I feel like there's another trade or middle infield shake up coming. Revere plays well here, goes to Philly, struggles. I'm not claiming it's all one sided. Most guys who come and go are in the middle, I get that too. I'm willing to give your side a little ground though. Are you?

    Worley and Diamond regress. Deduno pitches well. Albers was off everyone's radar. Gibson, Hicks are the first wave of prospects to underachieve. Bigger pattern trending in the wrong direction.

    Yasiel Puig shows poor sportsman ship, the Dodgers line is "he's a great guy, he just get's excited and expresses himself poorly." Dodgers got the memo it's not 1960 anymore. Meanwhile, Miguel Sano shows poor sportsman ship, the Twins show him who's boss with a proudly publicized four game benching. Anyone see a problem with that? Right or wrong, that's not how you treat people anymore. It's not rocket science either. Then you got Gardenhire showing up Hicks in the dugout in view of the cameras. To Hugh's point about Bobby Cuellar speaks Spanish so that's good enough, there are articles all over the web praising the presence of Latin-American born coach/player/mentors on big league rosters. Search KC on mlb from April 2013 for a good story. This is not a strange new concept. Twins have no one. The thing is, when a team is winning, no one really bothers about side issues like that. When a team is chronically losing, then it's worth taking a look. Some people here are trying to do that. Not everyone but some. Have a good day and hug your family. Lot's of names still in the hat too. Maybe another time.

  11. #51
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    -What does JJ Hardy have to do with Pitching?
    -Puig was benched at least once (I think multiple times) by the Dodgers, and frankly is probably going to run into issues in the future as well if he continues to act as immature as he does.
    -The Twins didn't publicize the benching, they gave an honest and direct answer. These things happen all the time in the minor leagues and they didn't "hold a grudge" against Sano, it was a learning experience, and the only reason why it was a story was because:
    1. Sano is one of the best 3 prospects in baseball
    2. The Twins MLB was dreadful and the local press needed a story.

    Besides, he did deserve the benching, you don't show up players like that, it only leads to yourself or a teammate getting potentially hurt later by a beaning.

    -NOTHING Dickey did in a Twins uniform indicated he would suddenly learn the art of the knuckleball, and I am not exactly sure what Gardy/Anderson were supposed to do at the time to turn him into a Cy Young pitcher. There are like a handful of guys in ML history who have thrown a decent knuckler, what were the Twins supposed to do? Bring in a specific coach who specialized in a knuckleball for a guy who was basically the 25th guy on the roster?

    -I still don't get why they HAVE to go get a Latin American coach just for the sake of it. I have never heard of any issue with Latin Americans on the twins or in the org who don't feel welcome or whatever. In fact I find the entire notion that they should hire someone based on race on not on qualifications a bit disturbing and backwards. Their should be no communication issues since Cueller and I am sure other players speak Spanish, if they happen to sign a guy from Japan they will bring in a translator just like for Nishioka, other than that I am not sure what else needs to be done.

    - How did Diamond regress when he came to Minnesota? If anything he did much better than he had in the past and put up a pretty strong 2012!Worley was coming off a major arm surgery and frankly looked lost all year, tough to blame that on the coaches, by that measure, better blame em for that other guy we signed and didn't pitch one inning (I am spacing on his name...but he used to be a very good pitcher)

    Who are the other names in the hat? I am genuinely curious.
    Last edited by SpiritofVodkaDave; 11-20-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm eagerly awaiting someone to bring up Jason Marquis. It was probably Rick Anderson's fault that Marquis' seven year old daughter was in a near-fatal accident and put into a medically-induced coma smack in the middle of Spring Training.

    No way that's going to mess with a guy's head in the first two months of a season. Rub some dirt on it and walk it off, amirite?
    Maybe the Twins shouldn't have released him after 7 starts, though? To replace him with... Cole DeVries? That suggests the Twins were the ones disappointed that Marquis didn't "rub some dirt on it and walk it off."

  13. #53
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    You, Dave, myself and others, we are talking right past each other. You don't sound like you're trying to hear anyone out - clarify if I am wrong. And you touched a nerve. Need to question how you handle Marquis's personal tragedy here. If you need assurance that a sentinel event like that can really affect an athlete in unpredictable ways, then I will assure you that it can. A comparison of Marquis's stats may or may not be appropriate here but the accident isn't. It's a relief that his story ended well.
    I think it's pretty apparent that my point was that Marquis was greatly affected by his daughter's accident during Spring Training, and for good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Standing by Humber. He was no good. I didn't think he was good. You didn't think he was good. We agree! I get what you're saying - he regressed. The point is, another organization got something out of him we couldn't. I double checked for you and verified that 2011 wasn't strike shortened to three months. A whole season of solid starting pitching. But get this: Humber had a rough patch that year - go figure. Irrelevant that he didn't become Steve Carlton overnight. Irrelevant that other teams passed on him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Worley and Diamond regress. Deduno pitches well. Albers was off everyone's radar. Gibson, Hicks are the first wave of prospects to underachieve. Bigger pattern trending in the wrong direction.
    What I don't understand is how you give any kind of credit for Phil Humber pitching well for half a season but then write off Scott Diamond for regressing. Don't you see that they're basically the same guy with the same issues? They're not very good at throwing a baseball, period. That's who they are as MLB players. If you give credit for one, you have to give credit for the other. Anderson got 3+ months of good pitching from Diamond. Cooper got 3+ good months of pitching from Humber. Then they both crashed and burned. I'm not going to fault Anderson for Humber any more than I'm going to fault Atlanta for not keeping Diamond on the 40 man roster.

    Hicks and Gibson shouldn't even be in the conversation at this point. Hicks flopped in MLB. Well, he's flopped at every new level he's been exposed to in the short term. That shouldn't surprise anyone. Gibson pitched less than half a season after coming back from TJ surgery. None of us should be the least bit surprised about his performance, though it's certainly a little disappointing. This is how the vast majority of guys reach the majors. They do well in the minors and then flop in the majors as they adjust to the highest level of competition in the world. Two years down the road if both have bombed out of the majors, you might have a point... But not three months into each of their MLB careers. No way.

    As for Worley, that was strange. Most of us expected regression from the league switch. He also had surgery. Basically, I view him as a holding pattern. If the Twins can't get anything out of him in 2014, then we can talk about coaching failure.

  14. #54
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Maybe the Twins shouldn't have released him after 7 starts, though? To replace him with... Cole DeVries? That suggests the Twins were the ones disappointed that Marquis didn't "rub some dirt on it and walk it off."
    Possibly. Since I wasn't in the room and have absolutely no idea how each party felt about Marquis remaining with the team, it's kind of pointless to speculate about what should/could have been done.

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    Really? The Twins signed Marquis for $3 mil guaranteed, about as much as they have ever guaranteed any outside FA pre-Willingham, as the one major move to bolster a shaky rotation. Then, after 7 poor starts, they release him outright, eating his salary, with no ready replacement, and he immediately displays solid health and performance fortwo years running. I think we have more than enough info to judge the Twins on this one. Not necessarily Anderson, but it is clear the Twins boo-booed here.

    That said, whoever brought up Humber is crazy. The mistake there was trading for him in the first place.

  16. #56
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Really? The Twins signed Marquis for $3 mil guaranteed, about as much as they have ever guaranteed any outside FA pre-Willingham, as the one major move to bolster a shaky rotation. Then, after 7 poor starts, they release him outright, eating his salary, with no ready replacement, and he immediately displays solid health and performance fortwo years running. I think we have more than enough info to judge the Twins on this one. Not necessarily Anderson, but it is clear the Twins boo-booed here.
    He had a 8.47 ERA in those 7 starts, why on earth wouldn't they release him at that point? He was downright terrible. And yes, he did get better, but how much of that was due to being in the pitcher friendly park that is Petco? He had a 5.61 FIP last year and a 5.5/5.2 k/bb/9 ratio last year, which is downright awful. If anything he left the Twins and got insanely lucky, which was helped by a pitchers ball park.

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    If the Twins releasing Marquis was not a mistake, then signing him was. And signing ONLY him was a huge mistake, if they were willing to cast him off so quickly.

  18. #58
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    If the Twins releasing Marquis was not a mistake, then signing him was.
    Ding ding ding.

    What the Twins need to do is stop signing players who are bad at throwing baseballs.

    Unless I'm forgetting someone, Kevin Correia was their best free agent pitching signing since since Kenny Rogers. Yeesh.

  19. #59
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm eagerly awaiting someone to bring up Jason Marquis. It was probably Rick Anderson's fault that Marquis' seven year old daughter was in a near-fatal accident and put into a medically-induced coma smack in the middle of Spring Training.

    No way that's going to mess with a guy's head in the first two months of a season. Rub some dirt on it and walk it off, amirite?
    Brock - As one who frequently questions the results that Anderson has attained for our pitchers, I would like to point out that neither I nor any of the others (that I remember) bringing up the same questions have singled out Marquis. That is off limits.

    All that matters for that year, regarding Marquis, is that his daughter made a full recovery. I appreciate that you are sensitive to it. I like to think we all are.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    Hugh Morris - JB_Iowa pretty much nailed it.
    Obviously TR wants to build for the future. I just cannot believe he'll do it through a significant move in free agency. It's just not in his nature. It's like he will forever appear bewildered by the fact that the salary levels aren't where they were 2 or 3 years before.

    And if the Twins wait around for 3 or 4 really good pitchers to come through the minor leagues and get here at the same time, that could be a really long wait. Possibly centuries.

    The 1987 and 1991 teams were NOT all home grown. Our GM back then went out and got what the team needed rather than waiting for a tsunami of talent to appear from the minor leagues all at the same time.
    Don't really want to go into necromancy on this thread, but wanted to reply to this since you took the time to answer my questions (always much appreciated!):

    Starting from the bottom-I also know that you've been a fan long enough to remember the seasons surrounding 87 and 91... specifically 89 to 90, where MacPhail traded away his best pitcher and did nothing of note in FA to help out the horrid infield offense or to replace the recent World Series hero and Cy Young Award winner he dealt away.

    I say this not because I think MacPhail was a bad GM (clearly, he was not, and the game will be lucky if he winds up replacing Bud), or because I disagree with his style-but because up until he signed Jack Morris, I can't think of (and some quick research backs this up) a major free agent signing by MacPhail that would qualify as "going out and getting what the team needed." He made trades and various other moves, but it's tough to look at TR's time atop the organization (somewhere around the 2 year anniversary now) and say he's been sitting on his hands when it comes to acquiring the power starting pitching that I think we can universally agree is the major issue facing the roster (Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, to a lesser extent both the college reliever experiment and May). I'm simply not sure that outside of Jack Morris, MacPhail is a particularly good model to use when the complaint is lack of free agent impact.

    As far as willingness to pay goes, I think there's another way of looking at it (and I'm sure we'll disagree here, but bear with me. I promise that I understand where your complaint on TR's FA spending is coming from): Terry has, by my napkin math, offered a single pitcher 22% of the payroll on a 5 year deal (Santana was offered 80/5, adding his salary to the 2008 opening day roster would have made it a touch under $73m). Obviously, how applicable extensions are to new FA signings (assuming the 'cap' is still in the $105m range, that would make for a 115/5 deal) is a subjective matter and up for debate. Personally? I think it's a better insight into TR's philosophy than his parsimonious spending under a notably cheap owner in one of modern baseball's worst revenue situations. I'm not looking to change any minds or get into an extended debate over why MacPhail was/is more successful than TR (because I think we're on the same side of that), but I hope you'll consider the point.

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