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  1. #21
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    Oh, and likewise, the many, many pitchers who've come here and put up their best numbers are not proof that Anderson and Gardy are superior coaches to whomever coached them previously.

  2. #22
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Oh, and likewise, the many, many pitchers who've come here and put up their best numbers are not proof that Anderson and Gardy are superior coaches to whomever coached them previously.
    Yep. In the end, chances are that the numbers will wash out once you factor success and failure.

    Sure, some guys respond better to certain coaches and don't respond to others. It happens. These are human beings, after all.

    Which is why I don't believe in judging coaching from a third party perspective unless we're talking about on-field management of players. I give Gardy the benefit of the doubt because it seems he has run a pretty tight clubhouse for 10+ seasons. But do I really know if he's a good clubhouse guy? Nah, not really.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Yeah and by the same token if we are going to eliminate injuries from the equation, then we can't count Liriano as a "success after Minnesota" IMO since injuries were a large issue on why he was ineffective here later on.

    Also add Joe Mays and Kevin Slowey to that list of pitchers who did worse/didn't get better.

    The problem isn't the Twins letting good pitchers go and them becoming better, the problem is the pitchers the Twins had were never really good in the first place.

    If you look at the pitchers who all of a sudden got a lot better, it is more just random then anything else:

    RA Dickey- NOBODY saw this coming.
    Liriano- I wanted them to keep him, this one still stings.
    Loshe- Was pretty much the same pitcher the first 5 years after the Twins let him go, suddenly now he starts pitching better? He was pretty meidocre in his first 3 years as a Card as well, so that wasn't the reason.

    Well Mays got a million times worse once Anderson came along from his all-star 2001 season and then it was really impossible to get much worse than what he was post 01.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    This is an old exercise and it continues to disprove your point, thrylos, time and again. It also fails to prove anything about Rick Anderson's prowess as a pitching coach.
    And this exercise is ALWAYS going to lead to all the useless stuff: "yeah, but Dickey sucked elsewhere before he stopped sucking for the Mets" or "yeah, but he was injured".

    Please let's let this one rest, along with all the other ones like it. Like how much better Vavra is than Brunansky as proven by the "facts".
    R. A. Dickey. I am the Dickey police and love picking up Dickey speeders.

    Dickey happens to be a knuckle ball pitcher otherwise IMO he is the perfect example of Gardy and Andy not knowing what they're doing. Sorry, with all due respect we can't let this one rest.

    So, there's Bill Smith, in his spare time between negotiating Santana, Hunter, Mauer and Morneau contracts. He signs Dickey to eat a ton of innings. Probably as a starter because you dont see many knucklers who are late inning relievers. (the google tells me we even signed Dickey prior to 2008 but sent him to Seattle).

    So it's April of 2009 and Dickey is a Twins pitcher. He gets one start and is sent to bullpen. As a situational reliever, brilliant! I guess to face the righties. And Dickey actually pitches pretty well, never getting back in the rotation however. There is an anecdote in Dickey's book about Gardenhire coming out to the mound once to bring Dickey into a tight spot and when Dickey gets out there, Gardy tells him "don't throw your knuckleball because we don't want any passed balls." Don't throw your knuckleball? The guy doesn't have any other pitch. That was part of the whole "Dickey" thing from the start. He's a knuckleballer.

    By July/August Gardy was twisted into knots over this knuckleball reliever Bill Smith gave him, and Dickey is optioned, never to be heard from again until the following year when he gets another chance to start. With his knuckleball. Also, Cy Young and stuff. Needs to be said. We will have this conversation again.

  5. #25
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    R. A. Dickey. I am the Dickey police and love picking up Dickey speeders.

    Dickey happens to be a knuckle ball pitcher otherwise IMO he is the perfect example of Gardy and Andy not knowing what they're doing. Sorry, with all due respect we can't let this one rest.

    So, there's Bill Smith, in his spare time between negotiating Santana, Hunter, Mauer and Morneau contracts. He signs Dickey to eat a ton of innings. Probably as a starter because you dont see many knucklers who are late inning relievers. (the google tells me we even signed Dickey prior to 2008 but sent him to Seattle).

    So it's April of 2009 and Dickey is a Twins pitcher. He gets one start and is sent to bullpen. As a situational reliever, brilliant! I guess to face the righties. And Dickey actually pitches pretty well, never getting back in the rotation however. There is an anecdote in Dickey's book about Gardenhire coming out to the mound once to bring Dickey into a tight spot and when Dickey gets out there, Gardy tells him "don't throw your knuckleball because we don't want any passed balls." Don't throw your knuckleball? The guy doesn't have any other pitch. That was part of the whole "Dickey" thing from the start. He's a knuckleballer.

    By July/August Gardy was twisted into knots over this knuckleball reliever Bill Smith gave him, and Dickey is optioned, never to be heard from again until the following year when he gets another chance to start. With his knuckleball. Also, Cy Young and stuff. Needs to be said. We will have this conversation again.
    You're right. The 2009 Twins should have stuck with Dickey in the rotation. No brainer, right? Obviously, he was the type of guy you keep in the rotation at the expense of Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, Glen Perkins, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn, or Carl Pavano.

    Because we all know that success in baseball is found by bumping mid-20-something prospects and durable veterans for a 34 year old journeyman who had never posted an ERA below 5.09.

    *bangs face on desk*

    I'll eat my damned hat if any of you can find ONE comment you made pre-2010 that talked up the potential of Dickey and argued that the Twins should keep him in the rotation... No, wait. I'll be satisfied if any you argued he should stay on the roster, period. ONE COMMENT. Since the Twins screwed up so badly, this shouldn't be hard to do, right?

    If memory serves me correctly, I remember one person suggesting that Dickey should stay... Nick Nelson, who made the argument "why not?" more than "Dickey will be good".

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I miss BYTO

  7. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Dickey in his own book says his time in Minnesota was about him still learning his craft as much as the team itself. I would take that more than speculation online. Nevermind that the Twins didn't "move" Dickey to Seattle. He was selected in the Rule 5 draft in 2007, and in order to keep him in spring 2008 without keeping him on the major league club, the Mariners had to offer the Twins something in exchange (or offer Dickey back). It's not as if the Twins were shopping Dickey in the trade market.
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  8. #28
    It can be nitpicked. The bigger point is that the Twins are managing their personnel so poorly. A guy like Dickey has no value to us, but to another organization becomes quite effective. We're in 2013 and this is now a regular pattern. Don't blame the players!

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    It can be nitpicked. The bigger point is that the Twins are managing their personnel so poorly. A guy like Dickey has no value to us, but to another organization becomes quite effective. We're in 2013 and this is now a regular pattern. Don't blame the players!
    The Twins were a playoff team in 2009.
    Blackburn, Baker, Liriano (sorta), Pavano, Slowey all seemed like better starting options then Dickey at the time. Swarzak, Manship etc weren't great, but at least were young and had promise.
    He had a terrible K/BB during his innings with the Twins, why on earth did they need to keep him at the time again? He was basically just the mop up guy.

  10. #30
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    It can be nitpicked. The bigger point is that the Twins are managing their personnel so poorly. A guy like Dickey has no value to us, but to another organization becomes quite effective. We're in 2013 and this is now a regular pattern. Don't blame the players!
    It's not nit-picking the player, it's nit-picking revisionist history. Guys come out of nowhere and shock the world. Dickey is one of those guys. Every team in baseball passed over RA Dickey several times. He was 35 years old when he broke out with the Mets, who were a bad baseball team and only put Dickey in the rotation because they literally had nobody else better. Most of us complain when the Twins sign or retain a 35 year old player who is league-average, much less a guy who couldn't pitch when the team is fighting for a playoff berth, as the Twins were in 2009.

    What's nit-picky is blaming the Twins for not predicting that a guy is going to roll snake-eyes 17 times in a row and go from a really bad pitcher to a Cy Young candidate at age 35.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    Bobby Cuellar does speak Spanish -- but is from Texas (not Latino; MAJOR difference too) and is a bullpen coach, not in the dugout. I cannot imagine any other MLB team would have ZERO Spanish speaking bench coaches! It's 2013 - are you kidding me!?
    In regards to Spanish speaking coaches from Latin America you can actually look it up
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/bu...oaching_staffs

    About 13 other teams do not have coaches born in Latin America as coaches somewhere in the dugout.including the A's, and Rays,

  12. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    It can be nitpicked. The bigger point is that the Twins are managing their personnel so poorly. A guy like Dickey has no value to us, but to another organization becomes quite effective. We're in 2013 and this is now a regular pattern. Don't blame the players!
    The bolded is simply not true. You say don't blame the players, but as evidence shows, there isn't evidence enough to blame the organization. Baseball giveth, and baseball taketh away. The best right handed power hitter of the last generation was a nobody that his own hometown team didn't select in the draft and fell to the 13th round, yet multiple #1 overall picks made it nowhere once they hit the minor leagues. Baseball is like that. Instead of attempting to blame the Twins for things completely out of their control, why not chalk it up to yet another baseball thing.

    RA Dickey was wanted by NO ONE on a major league deal when the Twins acquired him. David Ortiz was signed as a BACKUP DH by the Red Sox and couldn't get a starting job anywhere when the Twins let him go.

    Those are the two most often used cases against the Twins, and they're both easily debunked, as are many of the other ones used as "evidence" against the Twins.
    Last edited by biggentleben; 11-19-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    You're right. The 2009 Twins should have stuck with Dickey in the rotation. No brainer, right? Obviously, he was the type of guy you keep in the rotation at the expense of Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, Glen Perkins, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn, or Carl Pavano.

    Because we all know that success in baseball is found by bumping mid-20-something prospects and durable veterans for a 34 year old journeyman who had never posted an ERA below 5.09.

    *bangs face on desk*

    I'll eat my damned hat if any of you can find ONE comment you made pre-2010 that talked up the potential of Dickey and argued that the Twins should keep him in the rotation... No, wait. I'll be satisfied if any you argued he should stay on the roster, period. ONE COMMENT. Since the Twins screwed up so badly, this shouldn't be hard to do, right?

    If memory serves me correctly, I remember one person suggesting that Dickey should stay... Nick Nelson, who made the argument "why not?" more than "Dickey will be good".

    This!

    *When's the "Like" coming back? we can bare bones other aspects of the site.

    This, and other comments, demand a like.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    You're right. The 2009 Twins should have stuck with Dickey in the rotation. No brainer, right? Obviously, he was the type of guy you keep in the rotation at the expense of Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, Glen Perkins, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn, or Carl Pavano.

    Because we all know that success in baseball is found by bumping mid-20-something prospects and durable veterans for a 34 year old journeyman who had never posted an ERA below 5.09.

    *bangs face on desk*

    I'll eat my damned hat if any of you can find ONE comment you made pre-2010 that talked up the potential of Dickey and argued that the Twins should keep him in the rotation... No, wait. I'll be satisfied if any you argued he should stay on the roster, period. ONE COMMENT. Since the Twins screwed up so badly, this shouldn't be hard to do, right?

    If memory serves me correctly, I remember one person suggesting that Dickey should stay... Nick Nelson, who made the argument "why not?" more than "Dickey will be good".
    Nobody predicted Dickey would win a Cy Young. I get it. But hey we had young arms and needed a guy who could give us 180+ innings, ERA be damned.. I liked Dickey to be that guy and dug up a link from someone else with better reasoning than me who felt the same:
    http://martinandrade.wordpress.com/tag/ra-dickey/

    Possibly Dickey didn't have his knuckler perfected and would have busted and we would have released him anyway. That's why there are debates. btw this would get a like from me too. But back to the point. There's a whole hatful of names you can pick from, ex-Twins finding success, and fewer and fewer success stories here at home.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The Twins were a playoff team in 2009.
    Blackburn, Baker, Liriano (sorta), Pavano, Slowey all seemed like better starting options then Dickey at the time. Swarzak, Manship etc weren't great, but at least were young and had promise.
    He had a terrible K/BB during his innings with the Twins, why on earth did they need to keep him at the time again? He was basically just the mop up guy.
    And what does it say that Duensing was the one left over to start the playoffs that year?

  16. #36
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    You know, I seem to remember the fan backlash at the Dickey thing because it was one of those typical Twins picks that we all hated... and yes, guys like Nelson said "Why not?" but that was about as faint of praise as you can get. I agree with Brock here, this is nothing short of revisionist history. No one predicted he was going to win a Cy Young, why else did the Mets get him for dirt cheap?

  17. #37
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    There's a whole hatful of names you can pick from, ex-Twins finding success
    Again... No, there are not. In the rotation, there is Francisco Liriano and RA Dickey if you absolutely feel the need to put him in there. In the bullpen, you have Neshek (injury issues) and Balfour (injury issues). Hardly a hatful.

    People try to throw Kyle Lohse in there as some redemption story upon leaving the tutelage of "throw teh strikes" Rick Anderson but his league-adjusted stats were hardly different with the Cards than they were the Twins. Sure, the Twins gave up on him too early but that's not Rick Anderson's fault.

    The problem with the Twins (probably) hasn't been Rick Anderson or Ron Gardenhire. It's been the fact that the pitchers they drafted and the FAs they acquired weren't very good at throwing a baseball.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Again... No, there are not. In the rotation, there is Francisco Liriano and RA Dickey if you absolutely feel the need to put him in there. In the bullpen, you have Neshek (injury issues) and Balfour (injury issues). Hardly a hatful.

    People try to throw Kyle Lohse in there as some redemption story upon leaving the tutelage of "throw teh strikes" Rick Anderson but his league-adjusted stats were hardly different with the Cards than they were the Twins. Sure, the Twins gave up on him too early but that's not Rick Anderson's fault.

    The problem with the Twins (probably) hasn't been Rick Anderson or Ron Gardenhire. It's been the fact that the pitchers they drafted and the FAs they acquired weren't very good at throwing a baseball.
    Again, the hat is full of names. Let me reach in for another… Oh you'll love this one: Philip Humber. For the Twins, he plays 2 seasons, 6.00+ ERA in 13 relief appearances. Then he was gone. Patrick Reusse called him the very worst pitcher on a 40-man major league roster.

    Two years later Humber shows up in Chicago and Don Cooper gets an entire good season out of him, 9-9 3.75 ERA ERA+ of 116.

    Did the White Sox turn Humber into Ron Guidry? no. Did Humber regress after 2011, yes he did, spectacularly. Did anyone on TD predict Humber would ever be a solid starter after he left? Doubt it. Were guys like Anderson or Gardenhire able to figure out Humber, even for just one season? Apparently not. Was another organization able to get something out of him? Apparently so. And that's the point.

    I'm not talking about guys like Lohse or Big Poppi from back in the day. I also doubt Liriano can duplicate that last season ever again. But Liriano is part of the pattern that's developing that the Twins refuse to acknowledge exists. We had what 8 ex-Twin all stars this year for goodness sake and people notice that.

    Want to keep going?

  19. #39
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    Hi Vikesfan47 -
    I think I understand why you are giving up your tickets. As much as I love baseball and the Twins I would be tempted to do the same, were I to have them. It must be a really agonizing decision. That sucks.

    Sadly, I agree with most of what you wrote. As I see headlines like, "Twins talks heating up with..." and then the name of some MLB average pitcher my frustration grows. Why don't they 'Heat Up' a conversation with someone who, if they have a year like they have had in the past, would be well above average?

    Alas, I have not been this soured by Twins baseball for decades. So, I get it.
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    Maybe Pohlad was serious. Maybe he'll go talk to Garza himself. Or Kazmir. Because I cannot imagine TR doing anything involving a really good pitcher and free agency that would actually help build a future for this club.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Again, the hat is full of names. Let me reach in for anotherÖ Oh you'll love this one: Philip Humber. For the Twins, he plays 2 seasons, 6.00+ ERA in 13 relief appearances. Then he was gone. Patrick Reusse called him the very worst pitcher on a 40-man major league roster.

    Two years later Humber shows up in Chicago and Don Cooper gets an entire good season out of him, 9-9 3.75 ERA ERA+ of 116.

    Did the White Sox turn Humber into Ron Guidry? no. Did Humber regress after 2011, yes he did, spectacularly. Did anyone on TD predict Humber would ever be a solid starter after he left? Doubt it. Were guys like Anderson or Gardenhire able to figure out Humber, even for just one season? Apparently not. Was another organization able to get something out of him? Apparently so. And that's the point.
    I wasn't sure what route I was going to take with this. I could point out that Humber passed through waivers before the Twins let him loose in the offseason-literally nobody wanted him. I could point out that Kansas City signed him to a minor league deal and quickly booted him from big league camp-they saw him, and didn't really want him. I could point out that Humber opened 2011 in the bullpen. Or... I could point out that Humber's ERA from July through the end of the season in 2011 is 5.02.

    So yes, I grant you that Humber had an unbelievable 3 months in 2011. I suspect most people will agree with me that a pitcher having a great 3 months is hardly a condemnation of Rick Anderson as a pitching coach. You'll find stretches like that for many pitchers. Often, they're bookended by complete mediocrity. Mediocrity, of course, representing a substantial upgrade over what Humber put up before April 2011 and after July 2011 (less one magical night in 2012).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    I'm not talking about guys like Lohse or Big Poppi from back in the day. I also doubt Liriano can duplicate that last season ever again. But Liriano is part of the pattern that's developing that the Twins refuse to acknowledge exists. We had what 8 ex-Twin all stars this year for goodness sake and people notice that.

    Want to keep going?
    Please do keep going-I hadn't considered Humber as a possible Anderson failure that went on to be successful elsewhere and examining it was a good exercise.

    And let's be clear, Liriano absolutely has the ability to repeat that season-it's a question of whether his arm can continue throwing sliders every third pitch. I'm also curious if Cooper gets blame for 3 months of bad Liriano given that he got credit for 3 months of good Humber.

    To cover Lohse quickly- I'd say that his post-Twins success reflects maturity and personal growth (and a league change) more than an inability on behalf of Rick Anderson (unless we're going to argue that Gardy and Anderson are somehow responsible for Lohse taking a bat to Gardy's door after being pulled from an embarrassingly awful start for a competitive team. Which you can feel free to do).

    I'm happy to take discussion of the 8 ex-Twin allstars elsewhere if people feel like it's threadjacking.

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