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Thread: Rookie Hazing

  1. #21
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I agree that there are parallels to the male athletic world and the atmosphere in investment banking and law firms. In fact I almost made the same comparison to the 1980's Wall Street culture. Not coincidentally, those are also male dominated fields. Martin Scorsese is about to come out with a new film, The Wolf of Wall Street. Check it you if you want to see power hungry men behaving badly toward each other.

    I'm not sure why you think baseball isn't fun for these guys. Most people work hard, these guys work hard playing a game. If it wasn't fun, these guys would retire after making their first ten million and call it a career.

    Facetious apologies aside, I would like to ask you to explain how "hazing" (read: not harassment) is a.) inherently bad and b.) used exclusively by "immature people". It appears as though you believe these ideas, and I'm curious to see your reasoning.

    I believe that baseball is fun for these guys, but there is more to playing professional baseball than just having fun. They get paid to perform, and the pressure to perform well is often very high. This can be extremely stressful and decidedly "not fun" for some guys. (Remember the Hiroki Kuroda quote? Link-Yankees? Kuroda: I?ve never enjoyed baseball | New York Post)

    I still take issue with your remark that ballplayers "get paid to have fun all day". The hard work they put in and the pressure inherent in the game are not fun at all. Additionally, what if someone younger than you and better than you were trying to take your job? Fun?

    I am quite familiar with Scorsese and his upcoming work. I am extremely excited to see DiCaprio and Marty work together. Those two have something special
    Bring a song and a smile for the banjo,
    Better get while the gettin's good
    Catch a ride to the end of the highway
    Where the neons turn to wood

  2. #22
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    I find the analogies to other workplaces a bit naive, pro sports teams are not like the average workplace and the relationship between the employees has a very different dynamic.
    The Incognito case is an extreme one and goes beyond what the traditional idea of hazing is. Hazing is really nothing more than a way to encourage bonding and, particularly in the sports world, a way to show ones committment to each other and the team. In some ways it is analogous to the miltary, albeit with vastly lower stakes, but the notion of trust and committment to one another is similar.

    I'm not comparing playing football or baseball to being in a theatre of war, merely pointing out that they are often synonymous in a metaphorical sense, especially in this instance

  3. #23
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    In positive news, I just saw London Fletcher speak on Sportscenter (via a locker room report); the man was flabbergasted as to how this (Martin-Incognito) could happen, that there was such a lack of veteran leadership as to allow this indignity to happen. Fletcher was disgusted to the point that he seems to question not only the coaching leadership, but the veteran player leadership on the Dolphins, that such behavior could not just be ignored, but was perhaps, disgustingly, tolerated (er, encouraged).
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 11-06-2013 at 12:52 AM.

  4. #24
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Moderator note -- let's try to dial down the squabbling in this thread by a notch or two. You can be passionate, but the rules require that you be respectful.

  5. #25
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    As a fraternity member, I heard all the excuses for hazing you can offer. It is about humility. It is about bonding. It is a tradition. It makes you stronger. It is about whatever. It really is about more powerful people bullying less powerful people.

    Are there degrees that might be acceptable? Probably. Getting coffee as a new employee might be ok. Having to dress up in clothing that gets you laughed at, probably not. Someplace between there is the likely grey line.

    YMMV, but the arguments for hazing are pretty weak in a modern world, imo. They are much like the arguments for many traditions that we have pushed aside as we have learned more about the real effects of them.
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #26
    Senior Member Triple-A D. Hocking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    In positive news, I just saw London Fletcher speak on Sportscenter (via a locker room report); the man was flabbergasted as to how this (Martin-Incognito) could happen, that there was such a lack of veteran leadership as to allow this indignity to happen. Fletcher was disgusted to the point that he seems to question not only the coaching leadership, but the veteran player leadership on the Dolphins, that such behavior could not just be ignored, but was perhaps, disgustingly, tolerated (er, encouraged).
    It is no surprised to anyone reading the news that not every football player is exactly a boy scout, and some are literally felons. I would imagine a locker room without a strong leadership could be a toxic for someone targeted.

    One of the Vikings was interviewed on 1500 yesterday, and he almost seemed more critical of Martin than Incognito, saying he would have dealt with it internally and told Incognito where to go (I was actually trying to be productive at work, so I might have misinterpreted by not completely listening.) I thought it had kind of a blame the victim attitude, plus confronting Incognito might have been easier said than done if you feel the rest of the team is tolerating or even approving his behavior.

  7. #27
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Hocking View Post
    I thought it had kind of a blame the victim attitude, plus confronting Incognito might have been easier said than done if you feel the rest of the team is tolerating or even approving his behavior.
    Even moreso if the reports are true that Incognito was acting at the behest of the coaching staff. Hard to go to a coaching staff for help if they're in on it too.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Hocking View Post
    It is no surprised to anyone reading the news that not every football player is exactly a boy scout, and some are literally felons. I would imagine a locker room without a strong leadership could be a toxic for someone targeted.

    One of the Vikings was interviewed on 1500 yesterday, and he almost seemed more critical of Martin than Incognito, saying he would have dealt with it internally and told Incognito where to go (I was actually trying to be productive at work, so I might have misinterpreted by not completely listening.) I thought it had kind of a blame the victim attitude, plus confronting Incognito might have been easier said than done if you feel the rest of the team is tolerating or even approving his behavior.
    Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed that so many other players seem to be blaming Martin. They keep saying keep it in house and handle it yourself. Sage advice considering Icognito has had a reputation for being mentally unstable, he threatened to kill Martin and the NFL has a recent troubling history of players using firearms inappropriately. "Hey kid, the best move is to go punch the the guy voted 'Dirtiest Player in the NFL' in the nose, things will turn up aces for you!"

    Many players want to keep this stuff in house? Duh, most aren't affected negatively and they don't want more spotlights showing the other socially unacceptable things that take place in professional locker rooms considering the behavior may be far from professional.

  9. #29
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    A few completely unrelated points:

    1) It isn't necessarily happening here, but one thing that really bothers me about all of this is the focus on the racial aspect of things. I'm not a fan of it to be clear, but the fact that he chose to use race is inconsqeuential in my mind to the fact that he threatened Martin's family and Martin himself. Kind of sick really, and it's disturbing that society seems more pre-occupied with the use of the N word.

    2) I was also in a fraternity, and echo most of what Mike said in post 25. Truth is though that the only "hazing" I experienced was having to carry a small journal with me for about 6 weeks, and had it been anything degrading, I would have simply said no to the bid. The problem as I see it is that the small gray line varies from person to person. I personally wouldn't think much of being ducktaped to the goaline (ala Tim Tebow a couple years ago), but I doubt I'd be OK with having my clothes stolen and not returned out of my locker while I was in the shower. Both of these, I might add, happen, and while some are OK with it, some are not. The problem with the hazing side of things is that the victim never gets to define the line.

    3) Levi is right here, using the term bullying is a stretch at best. This is harrassment and extortion. It's a crime and Incognito will likely have a line added to his criminal record over this.

    4) I do not see how adding professional women to the locker room will help this at all. I'd argue it would add a worse dymanic in sexual harrassment. That already can go on in a locker room, which is largely why no gays have come out of the closet in the NFL. But in the few cases some sort of integration here has already occurred, there has been documented harrassment and even rape. Just a few years ago, Brett Favre got in a whole lot of trouble over sending a few pictures to a reporter. He was also named in a lawsuit regarding some female trainers. Adding more women to this mix isn't going to suddenly tame these guys. This is maturity issue through and through. I'd like to simply ask why it is that these men cannot act like professionals (and I'd expand that to other fields too), but unfortunately, there's a culture here that's blatantly unprofessional. It has to start before the NFL or MLB. It has to start before college. It has to start before highschool. For all the talk about how sports build character, the reality of the matter is that most athletes are coddled their entire lives because of their skills. They aren't held accountable and this type of mentality can easily develop. Hunter Smith (former Punter for the Colts) wrote a great book on this a few years ago (The Jersey Effect). It's a good read (thought to be clear this is a religious book).

  10. #30
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    To be clear, I intentionally joined a house that did NOT haze. It was one of my criteria.
    Lighten up Francis....

  11. #31
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    To be clear, I intentionally joined a house that did NOT haze. It was one of my criteria.
    Same here. I didn't mean to imply otherwise if I did.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Same here. I didn't mean to imply otherwise if I did.
    You didn't, I just wanted to be clear I did not have much first hand experience with hazing, thankfully.
    Lighten up Francis....

  13. #33
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    For all the talk about how sports build character, the reality of the matter is that most athletes are coddled their entire lives because of their skills. They aren't held accountable and this type of mentality can easily develop. Hunter Smith (former Punter for the Colts) wrote a great book on this a few years ago (The Jersey Effect). It's a good read (thought to be clear this is a religious book).

    Exactly on point.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Triple-A goulik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    To be clear, I intentionally joined a house that did NOT haze. It was one of my criteria.
    I chose to pledge one that I knew had a moral backbone that wouldn't abuse pledges but aimed to make pledging a fun way to get to know each other. When I was later in charge of pledges, I got to know them so as to not abuse or offend them. Pledge week was an excuse to be silly and ridiculous and have fun. My room mate was pushed in the right way to finally talk to that girl he'd liked. It is all about how and why it is done.
    How things are done in work places have to be about team building and not intimidation, offending people, or making them uncomfortable coming to work. The Twins things they do seem silly and aimed at fun, not any of these other things that happened in Miami.

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