Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 62

Thread: Jose Abreu signs with Sox

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,641
    Like
    9
    Liked 53 Times in 34 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    If they avoided this because he's going to be a sub-par player - great! Hopefully they're right. But at this point, we have every reason to believe the reason was because his price went too high.

    What we do know for sure, that is the most disappointing part for many I think, is that he was one of only a few options this young available in FA.
    3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.

  2. #42
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,687
    Like
    157
    Liked 613 Times in 342 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.
    Neither of us know how those negotiations go. For some of these guys the larger total dollar guarantee may be more appealing. Adam Dunn had already been established and made a bunch of money, the situations are very different.

  3. #43
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.
    If I could have a nickel for every time someone said the price went too high on a Free Agent....ah well....It's the price for staying in business- not a bad deal at all, especially when you're replacing the previous first baseman at a huge discount.

    Since you seem to somehow know in advance the level he will perform at, would you care to share his 2014 batting slash with the Community- so to take away the doubt, mystery and angst the rest of us have in not knowing how- and why- Terry Ryan so miraculously dodged this bullet?

    Looking at the qualified First Basemen at the top of the bottom half in WAR this year (ie, "mediocre"):

    Prince Fielder WAR 2.2 .279/.362/.457 (25HR) Salary: 9/$214M
    Anthony Rizzo WAR 1.6 .233/.323/.419 (23HR) Salary: 9/$70M
    Nick Swisher WAR 2.4 .246/.341/.423 (22HR) Salary: 5/$80M


    Justin Morneau WAR 0.8 .259/.323/.411 (17HR) Salary: 6/$80M

    Here's what his Cuban native contemporary did in 2013, his WAR number (2.3) is not comparable because he plays OF:

    Yoenis Cespedes .240/.294/.442 (26 HR) Salary 4+2/$36+$32?=$68M?

    That $68M is a reasonable, low-ball estimate forecasting for Cespedes' last 2 yet-unsigned arb years, in 2016 and 2017 @$16M/yr- and curiously, it's the same as Abreu's contract number. Their respective hitting numbers in Cuba were similar, with Abreu besting Cespedes more often than not.

    I think most Sox fans will be thrilled if and when Abreu produces numbers superior to those listed above- in the very-hitter-friendly launching pad that is US Cellular Field. Many Twins fans would have been similarly thrilled.

    And Oh Yeah, about that "long swing"? We've still got a sainted guy who still hangs around the ballpark.....and he literally speaks Abreu's language. Tony-O could have fixed that hitch....muy rapido!
    Last edited by jokin; 10-21-2013 at 12:17 AM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,641
    Like
    9
    Liked 53 Times in 34 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I

    Looking at the qualified First Basemen at the top of the bottom half in WAR this year (ie, "mediocre"):

    Prince Fielder WAR 2.2 .279/.362/.457 (25HR) Salary: 9/$214M
    Anthony Rizzo WAR 1.6 .233/.323/.419 (23HR) Salary: 9/$70M
    Nick Swisher WAR 2.4 .246/.341/.423 (22HR) Salary: 5/$80M


    Justin Morneau WAR 0.8 .259/.323/.411 (17HR) Salary: 6/$80M

    Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
    The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.
    Last edited by old nurse; 10-21-2013 at 06:35 AM.

  5. #45
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
    Posts
    2,429
    Twitter
    @twinsgeek
    Like
    1
    Liked 158 Times in 94 Posts
    Blog Entries
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
    The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.
    Well, almost by definition he's overpaid, in that only one team in 32 was willing to pay him that much. And while it's interesting that he chose a longer guaranteed deal over a shorter deal, I think there's a reason for that: service time. If he signs a 2-year deal, I think the club still owns his rights for four years and can offer him arbitration, etc., (or even keep him in the minors, giving him no service time.) Or at least all Cubans seem to go that route.

    But you're absolutely right that we know essentially nothing about this guy. If he's a star, then 25+ teams, including the Twins, blew it. If he's a plodding DH who is mediocre, than the White Sox are tied to another long-term deal, which has been a weakness for them. And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.

    It sure would have made the offseason more interesting had the a Twins got him, though. I'd like to know why they weren't interested.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,535
    Like
    61
    Liked 340 Times in 216 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.
    For the league, or just the White Sox?

    Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

    Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.

  7. #47
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
    The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.
    Nope. The deal is directly related to service time and getting money up front should he spend time in the minor leagues- both sides get some protection in this scenario. You have still not provided any proof whatsoever in flatly stating that "he is not going to be a great player." Rather, we simply don't know what type of player he is going to be, but the evidence that we do have suggests that he at least has a good chance to produce at a level commensurate with what a middling first baseman can produce, with the potential upside to produce like Big Papi.

  8. #48
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    For the league, or just the White Sox?

    Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

    Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.
    Bingo. I'm also not quite sure where John was going with his statement. This is an area of the market for talent that is being exploited around the league with some documented success stories (Cuba ranks 3rd in the number of international active players on major league rosters- ahead of Japan and Canada), and the Twins are nowhere to be found. A team in a desperate situation at the position like the Twins should at least have been in the running- and the fact that the Red Sox were a finalist in the bidding tells me that a team that clearly knows what it's doing- and not just in a dire urgency situation like the Twins and White Sox- ......was doing more than just kicking the tires in this case.
    Last edited by jokin; 10-21-2013 at 01:27 PM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,232
    Like
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    For the league, or just the White Sox?

    Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

    Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.
    If talking about the 30 teams, not just the White Sox, MLB Puig and Cespedes have been pretty darn good as well.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 10-21-2013 at 01:45 PM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    595
    Like
    185
    Liked 74 Times in 55 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Bingo. I'm also not quite sure where John was going with his statement. This is an area of the market for talent that is being exploited around the league with some documented success stories (Cuba ranks 3rd in the number of international active players on major league rosters- ahead of Japan and Canada), and the Twins are nowhere to be found. A team in a desperate situation at the position like the Twins should at least have been in the running- and the fact that the Red Sox were a finalist in the bidding tells me that a team that clearly knows what it's doing- and not just in a dire urgency situation like the Twins and White Sox- ......was doing more than just kicking the tires in this case.
    Cuba was 4th. But yeah.

    Opening Day rosters feature 241 players born outside the U.S. | MLB.com: News

    Abreu went hitless and looked overmatched against Gerrit Cole and Tanaka. He had 300 at bats in front of scouts. He isn't an 'obscure' prospect like Puig was. Scouts have seen him. They've seen him a lot. Scouts can be wrong of course. But he was seen often by all 30 MLB teams. Astros were the only other formal bid I had heard of. $55M. What did the Red Sox bid?

  11. #51
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    595
    Like
    185
    Liked 74 Times in 55 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    And I would say the Red Sox are actually not that successful when it comes to international scouting success.

    Xander Bogaerts could help them (Amateur Free Agent). Matsuaka's 6 years at $103M (posting fee + salarly) for 1 good season and 1 above average season with 4 horrible seasons, to me, has to be considered a big black eye.

    Tazawa and Doubront are the only other international signees on the Red Sox roster. Jose Iglesias would have been a 3rd. It's one of the least international rostered teams in MLB.

    If I'm not mistaken, you'd have to go back to 2003 when they signed Hanley Ramirez to find a home run on an international signing by the Red Sox.

  12. #52
    I must say I'm not very interested in him because we don't have a big hole(Canyon) at 1B
    I truly care for pitching and Jacoby Ellsbury.

  13. #53
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,625
    Like
    1,121
    Liked 535 Times in 354 Posts
    Wow, Cuba was fourth? I would not have guessed that in a million years*

    *actually, given a million years, I may have got that correct.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  14. #54
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    595
    Like
    185
    Liked 74 Times in 55 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    They did sign Anibal Sanchez in 2001...another good signing.

  15. #55
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,641
    Like
    9
    Liked 53 Times in 34 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Well, almost by definition he's overpaid, in that only one team in 32 was willing to pay him that much. And while it's interesting that he chose a longer guaranteed deal over a shorter deal, I think there's a reason for that: service time. If he signs a 2-year deal, I think the club still owns his rights for four years and can offer him arbitration, etc., (or even keep him in the minors, giving him no service time.) Or at least all Cubans seem to go that route.

    But you're absolutely right that we know essentially nothing about this guy. If he's a star, then 25+ teams, including the Twins, blew it. If he's a plodding DH who is mediocre, than the White Sox are tied to another long-term deal, which has been a weakness for them. And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.

    It sure would have made the offseason more interesting had the a Twins got him, though. I'd like to know why they weren't interested.
    Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years
    Last edited by old nurse; 10-21-2013 at 06:46 PM.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    595
    Like
    185
    Liked 74 Times in 55 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years
    If there's any follow up to this question - I'd like to know/understand as well. Would go a long way as to better understand how teams can and do pursue international non-amateur free agents.

  17. #57
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,270
    Like
    32
    Liked 120 Times in 78 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by twinsfan34 View Post
    If there's any follow up to this question - I'd like to know/understand as well. Would go a long way as to better understand how teams can and do pursue international non-amateur free agents.
    Several Japanese and Cuban players sign contracts that specifically grant them free agency when the initial contract is completed. I have wondered if baseball was going to eliminate this but they can still do it since Guerrero did it on his contract with the Dodgers.

    I'm still unsure if the posting counts or not towards the luxury tax. I wouldn't be surprised if it was prorated but I don't know.

  18. #58
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by twinsfan34 View Post
    Cuba was 4th. But yeah.

    Opening Day rosters feature 241 players born outside the U.S. | MLB.com: News

    Abreu went hitless and looked overmatched against Gerrit Cole and Tanaka. He had 300 at bats in front of scouts. He isn't an 'obscure' prospect like Puig was. Scouts have seen him. They've seen him a lot. Scouts can be wrong of course. But he was seen often by all 30 MLB teams. Astros were the only other formal bid I had heard of. $55M. What did the Red Sox bid?
    I think your source was for opening day rosters, my source was updated to reflect rosters throughout the season and it said that Cuba was 3rd and Canada was 4th:

    List of current Major League Baseball players by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ken Rosenthal stated this concerning the bidding:

    "Sources: Bidding for Abreu was close and furious. Four clubs bid between $63 and $66M. #WhiteSox’s winning bid was $68M."
    Last edited by jokin; 10-22-2013 at 04:52 PM.

  19. #59
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years
    Not according to Baseball Reference- according to them standard rules apply.

  20. #60
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,576
    Like
    828
    Liked 815 Times in 518 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Wow, Cuba was fourth? I would not have guessed that in a million years*

    *actually, given a million years, I may have got that correct.....
    Cuba has 21 that played major league ball in 2013 and Canada had 20, Japan with 13- it shocked me too.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.