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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    While enforcement of the unwritten rules is unseemly, those that would rather that enforcement be left off the feel, would have to stomach a lot more of Gomez/Puig kind of behavior. If the goal is to get the antics off the field, without steadfast, on-field enforcement, baseball would be far more a circus.
    I think that's debatable,especially when it' those unwritten rules that got Gomez pissed off in the first place.

    Also, consider that the enforcement of the behavior was far more of a spectacle than the behavior itself.

  2. #62
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    I like it when ballplayers admire their homers....so I'd be ok if that happened. Not sure why it requires someone to throw a ball at them if they do it.....if you don't like behavior, you should ignore it.
    Lighten up Francis....

  3. #63
    Senior Member Double-A scottz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    People seem to think that McCann got away scot-free. He was fined (as was Freeman), not a huge amount, but he was fined, while Gomez and Reed Johnson were suspended for one game. A game that they get paid for even though they can't play.

    Also, bringing back up the Fernandez thing over and over is just getting silly as Fernandez has said he was way in the wrong, and the verbage used by McCann as Fernandez crossed the plate would be more fitting in a proper English cup of tea than in trash talk familiar to modern sports.

    Recalling the Harper incident is also silly. 95% of pitchers in baseball will issue a brush back pitch when a batter walks that long into a home run trot. That's just the way it's always been in the game. The pitch was not a head-hunting pitch, rather one at his side, like you're taught to do in little league if you're doing a retaliation HBP.

    I'm not saying the Braves are innocent in all this by any means, but to state that there's some sort of reputation is hogwash. Nearly every team in baseball does exactly this, and some take it the step further of throwing high and inside. To the Braves' credit, the two times I can recall the high and tight pitch being thrown, Fredi Gonzalez has immediately removed the pitcher. In one instance, the reliever didn't pitch for a number of days following the up and in pitch.
    It's silly because you say it is silly? I say it isn't silly. Touchť! En garde!

    I pointed out 3 cases (i.e., evidence) where one team was involved in separate instances of bench clearing brawls, and their role in it was the same each time (i.e., the team that gave up the home run). In two of those cases, Brian McCann instigated a confrontation at (or before) the hitter touched home plate that put the fire on the kindling that was laid out via the batter. It doesn't excuse the batters' actions, but two of those brawls don't occur if McCann doesn't put on his shiny "Sheriff of Baseball" badge (at least at the time they occurred - perhaps in the future). If you don't want it to be called a reputation, that's OK. Let's just call it a pattern of behavior in 3 separate, but similar, instances.

    Listen, I don't care to argue about it, but my opinion on this is no more silly than yours. If a guy walks a little too long after a home run and the next time up, a pitcher decides to put one on his wallet, OK, whatever. I think intentionally throwing a baseball at someone is stupid, but whatever.

    I also think it is stupid if anyone is teaching little leaguers to dot batters for any reason - I never was taught that in any league. Any time dedicated to teaching a pitcher to hit a batter should be re-allocated to teaching the pitcher how to keep a hitter off balance so he doesn't routinely hit the ball over the fence. Any additional time should be spent reminding a pitcher that sometimes a hitter is going to hit the ball over the fence, and that you shouldn't get your undies in a bunch over it, no matter how proud he is of himself.

    Peace.
    scottz

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I like it when ballplayers admire their homers....so I'd be ok if that happened. Not sure why it requires someone to throw a ball at them if they do it.....if you don't like behavior, you should ignore it.
    If you saw the whole plate appearance, he swings wildly at the first pitch, and then stares down Maholm as he walks back into the batter's box and then he hits the HR...but it's not about the slight time he took admiring the HR, it's about how he's yelling at Maholm all around the bases. Gomez was upset about being hit in the leg 3 months ago...and there was no reason to believe it was on purpose. Is Gomez going to do that every time he gets hit by a pitch?

    True, McCann shouldn't have stood where he did and all that...absolutely...but those thinking Gomez has no fault on this...yeah, I don't get that.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  5. #65
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    I didn't say Gomez wasn't at fault, if I implied that, my bad......Gomez definitely is partly at fault.

    I was speaking in more general terms, I have no issue with Puig's admiring of homeruns, or celebrating when something good happens. I feel baseball is like the old skewl pilgrims and norwegians, it is somehow sinful to show emotion. I don't agree, I think the world would be better if we celebrated more, and repressed less.

    but ya, yelling at a pitcher as you run around the bases is silly, but the best way to handle it is to ignore it. There is actually research on this as it regards raising children......
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I think that's debatable,especially when it' those unwritten rules that got Gomez pissed off in the first place.

    Also, consider that the enforcement of the behavior was far more of a spectacle than the behavior itself.
    I think you're giving Gomez a pass; I'm not sure that Gomez gets to yap his mouth after he was plunked by a breaking ball months beforehand, I don't think that's an unwritten rule. That's ego.

    More than that, our own Twins did held Sano out for several games for a similar set of circumstances. Clearly, pimping home runs and yapping while trotting the baseball is something teams don't want their players doing.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I was speaking in more general terms, I have no issue with Puig's admiring of homeruns, or celebrating when something good happens. I feel baseball is like the old skewl pilgrims and norwegians, it is somehow sinful to show emotion. I don't agree, I think the world would be better if we celebrated more, and repressed less.
    There are many ways players express emotions without it deriding the other team. Silly little handshakes, the slop pile after a walk-off, fist pumps. But admiring one's home run, and taking a slow trot, while yapping isn't just expressing one's self, it is showing the other team up.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I didn't say Gomez wasn't at fault, if I implied that, my bad......Gomez definitely is partly at fault.

    I was speaking in more general terms, I have no issue with Puig's admiring of homeruns, or celebrating when something good happens. I feel baseball is like the old skewl pilgrims and norwegians, it is somehow sinful to show emotion. I don't agree, I think the world would be better if we celebrated more, and repressed less.

    but ya, yelling at a pitcher as you run around the bases is silly, but the best way to handle it is to ignore it. There is actually research on this as it regards raising children......
    When/if all the 'old school' stuff fades out of baseball we'll see change, until then, these players are taught things that are 'right' in baseball to do and 'wrong' in baseball to do. It's been ingrained in them for years and years. I'm not saying it's right, but when your bosses tell you all this stuff over and over, well, you work for them. Twins coaches are telling Sano it's wrong to pimp a HR and they punish him for doing so. Players have been taught not to show up opposing members and they laid out what that entails. I'm all for change, but it needs to change throughout the game and starting at the lowest levels.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  9. #69
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I didn't say Gomez wasn't at fault, if I implied that, my bad......Gomez definitely is partly at fault.

    I was speaking in more general terms, I have no issue with Puig's admiring of homeruns, or celebrating when something good happens. I feel baseball is like the old skewl pilgrims and norwegians, it is somehow sinful to show emotion. I don't agree, I think the world would be better if we celebrated more, and repressed less.

    but ya, yelling at a pitcher as you run around the bases is silly, but the best way to handle it is to ignore it. There is actually research on this as it regards raising children......
    Mike I think society in general is getting to touchy. It's happening on this blog for some reason. Maybe I'm missing the bad stuff but I've never really sensed a lot of nasty stuff here. We saw it a few years back when Howard started deleting comments at the Strib. It was common to have 200 comments during a game and now maybe 10. If I was in charge, which I am not, I'd do the George Carlin words you can't say on the radio and let people ignore whatever else they don't like.
    The baseball unwritten rule stuff is really getting old. A guy walks slow after a homerun, allows you to throw a baseball at his head? You throw a rock at somebody and you'll go to jail. You throw a baseball at them it's standing up for your teammates. Seems silly to me.
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  10. #70
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    Of course Gomez acted like a schmuck. The difference is, pitchers show up, bean, and brush hitters all the time nd hitters re supposed to ignore it. A guy takes an extra second after doing something really hard to do....and he is always the clown. The unwritten rules are so lopsided for pitchers I don't blame hitters for taking offense.

    its all nonsense and stupid, but pitchers do it and get away with it far more often.

  11. #71
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    I don't like the showboating, it annoys me. I like the reaction by McCann less though. Sure Gomez was showing Maholm up, but what did McCann think he was doing? He was blocking the path of the base runner twenty feet from home plate and not allowing Gomez to touch it. That sure as hell isn't one of baseball's unwritten rules. McCann was trying to make a spectacle just as much as Gomez was. Besides, before the HR, McCann and Gomez looked like they were jawing. When McCann blows his **** afterwards, it just looks like a sore loser as Gomez got the better of that battle.

    What happened to being the bigger man? Do your talking with the scoreboard and the standings. Did McCann and the Braves really think Gomez' antics were going to make him look cool and admired by the rest of the baseball world? Let him look like a fool; arrogant HR trots will turn off 90% of the people every time.
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 09-27-2013 at 02:58 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Of course Gomez acted like a schmuck. The difference is, pitchers show up, bean, and brush hitters all the time nd hitters re supposed to ignore it. A guy takes an extra second after doing something really hard to do....and he is always the clown. The unwritten rules are so lopsided for pitchers I don't blame hitters for taking offense.

    its all nonsense and stupid, but pitchers do it and get away with it far more often.
    Not to ascribe blame to Bert Blyleven, as he's a product of his era, but he actually revels in these unwritten rules from the days of Gibson, Drysdale, Nolan Ryan, er al.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I think you're giving Gomez a pass; I'm not sure that Gomez gets to yap his mouth after he was plunked by a breaking ball months beforehand, I don't think that's an unwritten rule. That's ego.

    More than that, our own Twins did held Sano out for several games for a similar set of circumstances. Clearly, pimping home runs and yapping while trotting the baseball is something teams don't want their players doing.
    I'm giving Gomez a pass? Not at all. I think he acted like an idiot (see my previous post where I said I've got no problem with McCann and whoever else feeling like they can yap at him for being an idiot -- it was the blocking of the plate that was over the top). One person acting like an idiot does not require people to react to it in the same way.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Of course Gomez acted like a schmuck. The difference is, pitchers show up, bean, and brush hitters all the time nd hitters re supposed to ignore it. A guy takes an extra second after doing something really hard to do....and he is always the clown. The unwritten rules are so lopsided for pitchers I don't blame hitters for taking offense.

    its all nonsense and stupid, but pitchers do it and get away with it far more often.
    Ask Grienke about this.

    Beyond the risk of someone charging the mound, a pitcher puts his own teammates at risk by throwing intentionally at a guy, and often there's retaliation, if it's in the NL they'll throw at the pitcher himself, if not it will be the catcher or the team's best player.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I'm giving Gomez a pass? Not at all. I think he acted like an idiot (see my previous post where I said I've got no problem with McCann and whoever else feeling like they can yap at him for being an idiot -- it was the blocking of the plate that was over the top). One person acting like an idiot does not require people to react to it in the same way.
    You implied that Gomez was acting from the same set of unwritten rules, I'm suggesting he was not. That's what I meant by giving him a pass.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    You implied that Gomez was acting from the same set of unwritten rules, I'm suggesting he was not. That's what I meant by giving him a pass.
    Gotcha. My point was that Gomez believed he was beaned on purpose, which is an acceptable unwritten rule under certain circumstances in baseball, no?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Ask Grienke about this.

    Beyond the risk of someone charging the mound, a pitcher puts his own teammates at risk by throwing intentionally at a guy, and often there's retaliation, if it's in the NL they'll throw at the pitcher himself, if not it will be the catcher or the team's best player.
    True but by and large its still the hitters that pay the price for the pitchers nonsense.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Youre a smart guy Ben, listen to yourself. These are eexactly the arguments you just used:

    1. Well.......everyone else is doing it!
    2. It is how it has always been which makes it ok
    3. He threw something tht could seriously hurt him the "right way" for having the audacity to shift himself in the batters box.

    good god, that's Fallacies 101. We don't accept that from kindergartens on the playground but we justify professional adults with it.
    I have never said that I think it's the BEST thing to be done, but it's how it's done. A lot of baseball isn't logical - why do you pay for a player's decline, but he gets screwed in his productive seasons, for instance - but when you start biting that "this team is being meanie-heads", then looking around and realizing what really happened and how it relates to how that particular industry operates is required.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottz View Post
    It's silly because you say it is silly? I say it isn't silly. Touchť! En garde!

    I pointed out 3 cases (i.e., evidence) where one team was involved in separate instances of bench clearing brawls, and their role in it was the same each time (i.e., the team that gave up the home run). In two of those cases, Brian McCann instigated a confrontation at (or before) the hitter touched home plate that put the fire on the kindling that was laid out via the batter. It doesn't excuse the batters' actions, but two of those brawls don't occur if McCann doesn't put on his shiny "Sheriff of Baseball" badge (at least at the time they occurred - perhaps in the future). If you don't want it to be called a reputation, that's OK. Let's just call it a pattern of behavior in 3 separate, but similar, instances.

    Listen, I don't care to argue about it, but my opinion on this is no more silly than yours. If a guy walks a little too long after a home run and the next time up, a pitcher decides to put one on his wallet, OK, whatever. I think intentionally throwing a baseball at someone is stupid, but whatever.

    I also think it is stupid if anyone is teaching little leaguers to dot batters for any reason - I never was taught that in any league. Any time dedicated to teaching a pitcher to hit a batter should be re-allocated to teaching the pitcher how to keep a hitter off balance so he doesn't routinely hit the ball over the fence. Any additional time should be spent reminding a pitcher that sometimes a hitter is going to hit the ball over the fence, and that you shouldn't get your undies in a bunch over it, no matter how proud he is of himself.

    Peace.
    scottz
    I'd be interested to know how much of those "evidence" games you watched because you really did a poor job of analyzing them other than highlight-based analysis. There's always more to the story than simply meets the eye.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  20. #80
    Senior Member Double-A scottz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    I'd be interested to know how much of those "evidence" games you watched because you really did a poor job of analyzing them other than highlight-based analysis. There's always more to the story than simply meets the eye.
    Why, I watched the highlights, of course. Who wants to watch the Braves play? I kid.

    Of course there is more to the story. There always is. My point is that REGARDLESS of what happened prior, there are 3 recent instances of the Braves involvement in bench-clearers and in 2 of them, McCann's actions at/near the plate are what *immediately* preceded the benches clearing. And in the other, Harper yelled and pointed at Teheran, but McCann again is the one who attempts to physically confront Harper. So...more to it or not, McCann is going out of his way to physically confront the (admittedly chirpy/cocky) batters. Pattern of behavior.

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