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Thread: Article: The Twins Way

  1. #21
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Amaurys Minier, Lewin Diaz, Lewis Thorpe.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    You're aware Pinto, Arcia, and Sano are International signings right? Sano is 20, so if you're asking about 19, 18, and 17 year-olds there is some really good information on the board. IMHO things look just fine.
    The article's contention seemed to be the Twins were making significant investments in international free agents, which Sano was an example of. But I can't really think of any major international signings besides Sano. (That's not to say the Twins haven't gotten some solid prospects in the international market, but they haven't invested that much in them, nor have they gotten any stars out of it yet either.)

    Which actually brings up an interesting point: has the Twins efforts in the international market produced results, compared to other MLB clubs? Just scanning the division for original international signings:

    Detroit: Omar Infante, Avisail Garcia, Bruce Rondon
    Cleveland: Danny Salazar (plus Victor Martinez & Jhonny Peralta, now with Detroit)
    KC: Salvador Perez
    CHW: Ramirez, Viciedo

    The Twins now have Arcia & Pinto, but those are the first notable international free agents the Twins signed that reached MLB in awhile, correct? Scanning Twins rosters all the way back to 1987, here's what I found:

    Jose Mijares
    Juan Rincon
    Luis Rivas
    ...
    Mark Portugal?

    They have acquired some international guys by trade etc. (Johan, Guzman, etc) but that seems like a pretty thin record. Since they also don't sign significant free agents, it's kind of a wonder they won anything -- they were pretty much 100% dependent on drafts and trades. Sano (and Arcia/Pinto) notwithstanding, they still have been, until the present day.

    Hopefully Arcia, Pinto, and Sano start a new wave for us, but I suspect the bigger effect will be the new international spending caps (like how the draft spending caps likely netted us Buxton).

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Amaurys Minier, Lewin Diaz, Lewis Thorpe.
    Thanks Seth. Those are good names, although it should be noted that all three of these guys were signed after the MLB adopted international spending caps, dramatically reducing the player's negotiating leverage. Not that they can't turn out to be good signs (although all of them are very far from MLB), but it's basically mandated spending, like the Buxton bonus.

    What were the Twins top international bonuses prior to 2012, besides Sano? Kepler (another 2009 Smith guy)? Smit? I'm having trouble thinking of any major pre-2012 Dominican/Venezuelan Twins signings... Arcia signed for $80k, I can't even find Pinto's bonus amount anywhere...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He asked, other than Sano:

    Did they go big internationally, before or since


    You then proceeded to list Sano as part of the group that proved this wrong. The other two - Pinto and Arcia - were not "big" international signings by any imagination. They were good ones, but completely irrelevant to the question asked. It was in reference to spending significant money to bring in players.

    Instead, you made it about what you want to keep saying, not about what the point actually was.
    Unlike when Sano was signed there are now limits on spending for amateur free agents. The whole back and forth on if the Twins spend big to sign players in that market is moot. The world changed and there are new rules for them to play by. As you know, they can spend more, but there are penalties associated with that. Now if you were to talk about the former international professionals in other leagues seeking their new fame and fortune in America, the answer would be not much has been done there.

  5. #25
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Unlike when Sano was signed there are now limits on spending for amateur free agents. The whole back and forth on if the Twins spend big to sign players in that market is moot. The world changed and there are new rules for them to play by. As you know, they can spend more, but there are penalties associated with that. Now if you were to talk about the former international professionals in other leagues seeking their new fame and fortune in America, the answer would be not much has been done there.
    Very true, which is why I'm hoping we very aggressively pursue Tanaka or Abreu.

  6. #26
    This was good. It was fair. Still I cannot help but feel we the fans and tax payers have been treated unfairly. Isn't turn about fair play? I actually think the MN nice thing with most of the fans has gone too far and the fans need to be way more disillusioned and harsh with their opinions. In MN we have to push hard because the pro sport franchises have cocooned themselves inside a market in which they complete control the media that continually spins their terribleness into something that is simply cyclical or not ownerships/front offices fault. It just gets so tiresome.

  7. #27
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He asked, other than Sano:

    Did they go big internationally, before or since


    You then proceeded to list Sano as part of the group that proved this wrong. The other two - Pinto and Arcia - were not "big" international signings by any imagination. They were good ones, but completely irrelevant to the question asked. It was in reference to spending significant money to bring in players.

    Instead, you made it about what you want to keep saying, not about what the point actually was.
    Moderator note -- please cool it with this side discussion.

  8. #28
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder whether there are weaknesses in the Twins organization that we are not able to quantify, such as deficiencies scouting and minor league coaching. There seems to be no good way to measure this, but scouting and minor league coaching seem very important to building a strong organization, especially for a mid-market team.

    I would love to see the Twins bring in some top people from the Rays and Athletics organizations. Those two teams seem to get better results despite smaller revenues than the Twins. Maybe some new ideas could help a lot over the long run.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    I sometimes wonder whether there are weaknesses in the Twins organization that we are not able to quantify, such as deficiencies scouting and minor league coaching. There seems to be no good way to measure this, but scouting and minor league coaching seem very important to building a strong organization, especially for a mid-market team.

    I would love to see the Twins bring in some top people from the Rays and Athletics organizations. Those two teams seem to get better results despite smaller revenues than the Twins. Maybe some new ideas could help a lot over the long run.
    To some degree the better results you are referring to depend a bit on sample size. If we use the last 3 years, well yes the Rays and the A's have much better results. If we compare the last 15 years, well the Twins would likely come out on top. I don't know if either sample size is exactly what we should be looking at. I suspect that both the Rays and the A's would like greater resources to work with. Both teams, like the Twins have come up short of winning a World Series and both have shipped off productive talent before they likely wanted to(sometimes called trading at peak value).

    What I admire about both organizations is that they both have found quite a bit of good, young pitching. It is also true that both organizations are short of home grown offensive talent. There are trade offs.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Triple-A Thegrin's Avatar
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    "Of course, taking issue with how those in authority run things is almost as ingrained in American culture as baseball itself. On the other hand, whether the subject is government, business or sports, those with no clue about how to actually run something are often the most vocal critics of those who do."

    This is the most perceptive quote from the article.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegrin View Post
    "Of course, taking issue with how those in authority run things is almost as ingrained in American culture as baseball itself. On the other hand, whether the subject is government, business or sports, those with no clue about how to actually run something are often the most vocal critics of those who do."

    This is the most perceptive quote from the article.
    Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?
    Lighten up Francis....

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?
    There's that, and as far as that particular part of the article went, it was just plain insulting to some readers. It's when I stopped reading the article...and I'm not the only one who stopped reading at that point either.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 09-16-2013 at 11:20 AM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  13. #33
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    I guess my biggest issue with the love of "The Twins Way" is summed up in paragraph two:

    "But what is The Twins Way? We have some vague idea that it’s about playing good defense, running the bases intelligently, moving runners effectively and, yes, “pitching to contact”

    To me it just seems so arogent to think the Twins have cornered the market on this. Aside from the archaic PTC philosophy, doesn't every team strive to play good defense and run the bases well? Are we to think the Twins are special because they teach their youngsters fundementals of baseball? EVERY team wants to play good defense and run the bases wisely. Every team wants to move runners over as opposed to hitting in front of the them. Every team wants their outfielders to know when to hit the cut off man.

    It's conceited to think the Twins either invented these philosophies and/or every other team abandoned them.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap View Post
    The Twins way:
    a. Do not try a pickoff play, ever, especially the catcher, because why risk throwing the ball away?
    b. Do not try a squeeze play, ever, because you might lose a baserunner.
    c. Do not hit and run -- risk of swing and miss.
    d. Do not make yourself into a running team because you might make outs on the bases, even though you are not a power team.
    e. Do not try to hit home runs because you might strike out, and anyway, the Twins are more of a "do the little things" type team.
    f. Hit the other way, even if it means dinky singles from your number 3 hitter.
    g. Play for one run whenever possible, even with one of the worst pitching staffs in the league.
    h. Play your backup catcher or 1B in right field as often as possible because you need the offense you aren't getting from them in the first place.

    So, in essence, it boils down to: Don't take any chances. Don't risk anything. Just play the game the way it is supposed to be played, sacrifice often, run station to station, let the other team hit the ball and go get it -- no passion, no surprises, none of this high risk--high reward stuff. Definitely the most boring team in baseball. Hands down.

    And now, they are too afraid of having to replace a manager to let him go during the season. Talk about risk averse. A guy who has lost 90 games three years in a row, has a 12-game playoff losing streak and has only won one playoff series -- ever. I mean, the Twins lack of "going for it" -- for anything, anywhere, anytime, is ... for lack of a better word, pathetic.
    Great post, but the lack of responses tell me your post is a little too controversial for this forum.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Another appeal to authority argument. "If you aren't in the job, you can't criticize someone". It is great as a rhetorical tool, but not so great for encouraging democracy and encouraging critical thinking. And what makes people think some of us don't run large parts of companies?
    To answer your question without getting a lifetime ban will be difficult. The line from the article was the inflammatory comment I mentioned earlier. People make judgments of people based on what they post and how they respond to other posts. The line in the article is that person's observation, shared by others, on what the vocal critics post. If anything, it is meant to encourage critical thinking before one posts some rant. Personally, I see a lot of very narrow focused frequent complaints that miss the bigger picture. When I managed departments I felt like you needed to see the bigger picture. Maybe these posters have run something, but it might not be evident in how they post. On the other hand, this forum does become a venting session. Venting and critical thinking often do not go together.
    Last edited by The Wise One; 09-16-2013 at 11:12 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap View Post
    The Twins way:
    a. Do not try a pickoff play, ever, especially the catcher, because why risk throwing the ball away?
    b. Do not try a squeeze play, ever, because you might lose a baserunner.
    c. Do not hit and run -- risk of swing and miss.
    d. Do not make yourself into a running team because you might make outs on the bases, even though you are not a power team.
    e. Do not try to hit home runs because you might strike out, and anyway, the Twins are more of a "do the little things" type team.
    f. Hit the other way, even if it means dinky singles from your number 3 hitter.
    g. Play for one run whenever possible, even with one of the worst pitching staffs in the league.
    h. Play your backup catcher or 1B in right field as often as possible because you need the offense you aren't getting from them in the first place.
    I agree with the sentiment that the Twins are too conservative, not only in the front office but on the diamond but I don't know that all of these are issues, or at least still issues.

    The Twins have done a fair amount of hit-and-running in the past, but they haven't had too many guys with even modest speed recently and even fewer guys with on-base skills to be in the position to run. The hit-and-run has dropped off with Mauer batting #3, but I think that has more to do with Mauer's tendancy to drive the ball up the middle, which would be where the middle infielders are heading during a steal. And let's face it, unless Mauer's at the plate, the hit-and-run is kind of stupid with a bunch of sub .300 OBP guys at the plate.

    While I agree the Twins Way has limited power in the past by preaching going the other way, I think that changed last year when they let righthanders Willingham and Plouffe rip away to left field.

    I do agree with other complaints though. I hate playing for one run, and I hate pinch running for your best hitter who is standing on 1st with two outs in the 8th or 9th. I hate how much playing time back up catchers get.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    To answer your question without getting a lifetime ban will be difficult. The line from the article was the inflammatory comment I mentioned earlier. People make judgments of people based on what they post and how they respond to other posts. The line in the article is that person's observation, shared by others, on what the vocal critics post. If anything, it is meant to encourage critical thinking before one posts some rant. Personally, I see a lot of very narrow focused frequent complaints that miss the bigger picture. When I managed departments I felt like you needed to see the bigger picture. Maybe these posters have run something, but it might not be evident in how they post. On the other hand, this forum does become a venting session. Venting and critical thinking often do not go together.

    This is fair, and your points are generally spot on. Venting and critical thinking rarely work together. But that wasn't really what was stated, imo. Sometimes venting is cool, sometimes it is just too often, to strongly worded.

    Personally, I don't think it is true that people that have never had a job can not criticize those that do. What they probably can't do is criticize with certainty.
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    I think that the "Twins Way" didn't start out as an organizational philosophy, rather it developed around the players the Twins had in the early 2000s. The Twins Way was what those players did well. The Twins didn't have much for power arms or bats, so we celebrated hitting spots and not issuing walks, and hitting the ball to the opposite field for singles. Good defense wasn't unique to the Twins, but when you're an otherwise unspectacular team, you promote your strengths I guess.

    Later I think it became an expectation that Twins rookies were supposed to live up to, which may or may not have fit their individual talents.

  19. #39
    There's lots of organizational arrogance surrounding the "Twins way". I think the Twins are a little to giddy over winning mediocre Central Divisions when they should be embarassed and apologizing for their woeful, and I mean woeful playoff performances.

  20. #40
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    someday I'd like to read an article about the Twins like this.....

    Aggressive defensive plan has led to Pirates' turnaround | TribLIVE

    maybe about using only 3 "starters"......but I have my doubts right now. any way to know the percent of other teams (like, say, the Twins) on how much they shift?
    Lighten up Francis....

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