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Thread: Why Don't the Twins Re-Sign Minority Players

  1. #21

    Really -- it's a small sample size isn't it?

    Since the free agent era started, the Twins really have not been that active -- either signing their own free agent stars or letting them go, have they? They traded or traded for some other guys that got a paid like Viola, Brunansky, Shane Mack, Shannon Stewart. This is what I remember off the top of my head.

    Guys they've let walk -- who signed for big money (or big money at the time) elsewhere
    Larry Hisle
    Rod Carew
    Lyman Bostock
    Dave Goltz
    -----Pohlad family
    Gary Gaetti
    Greg Gagne
    Torii Hunter
    Jaque Jones
    Johan Santana
    Michael Cuddyer
    Jason Kubel
    (Cuddyer and Kubel are making some pretty good money over the next three years)

    Guys they re-signed for big money --
    Puckett
    Nathan
    Mauer

    Free agents they signed from elsewhere for decent money
    Chili Davis
    Jack Morris
    Dave Winfield
    Paul Molitor
    Willingham?
    Last edited by funoka; 04-13-2012 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I have been on the record saying similar things regarding the Twins for a while now,
    Sweet! On the record? Sounds professional.

  3. #23
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    The argument in the story isn't that these moves were made for racial reasons. The suggestion was that a team feels more pressure to hang onto players with which that fan base identifies and a Minnesota fan base identifies more with Mauer and Nathan than Hunter and Santana.

    We can go back and forth on specifics, but I don't see any significant differences in the situations that explains why two deals got done and two didn't. If the Twins would've kept Hunter and Santana and let Mauer and Nathan go for exactly the same money, we would be saying the same thing about Mauer/Nathan that we say about Santana/Hunter: they wanted too long of a deal, they were too expensive, etc.

    That doesn't mean that the Twins made a decision based on the color of the players' skin. They may have made it because they felt like the fan base demanded it, or because they felt like the players wanted to stay more, or because they were more popular. But then the question can be asked: why would the fan base demand it more, why would the players want to stay more, why were they more popular?

  4. #24
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    I can't believe that somebody would call Punto a garbage player. I consider him a high level athlete! He is so talented--was a high- light reel fairly often on ESPN. Gardy and most baseball people really like him. Every team needs players like Punto. Such a team oriented player-infectious! He and players like him will always have jobs in the big leagues.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    The argument in the story isn't that these moves were made for racial reasons. The suggestion was that a team feels more pressure to hang onto players with which that fan base identifies and a Minnesota fan base identifies more with Mauer and Nathan than Hunter and Santana.

    We can go back and forth on specifics, but I don't see any significant differences in the situations that explains why two deals got done and two didn't. If the Twins would've kept Hunter and Santana and let Mauer and Nathan go for exactly the same money, we would be saying the same thing about Mauer/Nathan that we say about Santana/Hunter: they wanted too long of a deal, they were too expensive, etc.

    That doesn't mean that the Twins made a decision based on the color of the players' skin. They may have made it because they felt like the fan base demanded it, or because they felt like the players wanted to stay more, or because they were more popular. But then the question can be asked: why would the fan base demand it more, why would the players want to stay more, why were they more popular?
    If True... Someone in Twins Management is making that decision based upon what he thinks the typical Twins Fan thinks and that person is an idiot.

    If True... You would have to assume that a poll or research project was done to gauge the typical Twins fan commitment to the Twins based on this tricky subject, so they could tailor their roster based actual information.

    If True... A poll of this sort in the field would be a political nightmare. Therefore if True... Someone is making these decisions based on no basis what so ever and is an idiot.

    If True... any roster or contract decision based upon the un-informed... un-scouted opinion of fans who are not even intelligent enough to be enlightened. Would be the workings of an idiot.

    If true... The only way this happens is under the radar and made by the decision maker himself and he is too busy drafting Aaron Hicks and signing Sano.

    The only conclusion is not true... (Bang the gavel down)

  6. #26
    I couldn't care less if our players are white Minnesota natives or purple Martians. I just want the team to win, couldn't care less about what the players look like or where they hail from.

    As far as that article goes, I feel like commenting on it at all gives it undue publicity. Sadly, there's still more than enough real race issues that people have to deal with every day. No need to go about minimizing that fight by drumming up fictitious ones.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by @_2244 View Post
    I couldn't care less if our players are white Minnesota natives or purple Martians. I just want the team to win, couldn't care less about what the players look like or where they hail from.

    As far as that article goes, I feel like commenting on it at all gives it undue publicity. Sadly, there's still more than enough real race issues that people have to deal with every day. No need to go about minimizing that fight by drumming up fictitious ones.
    BINGo with a capital BING.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Totally reject the premise of the question. In fact, it commits a fallacy called 'complex question' in which you force any answer to already assume something is in the question is true.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    ON the other side, there was a LOT of talk about how Santana wanted to be in a much bigger market, so I don't know if that should count against the Twins. But Hunter has always been about the money. He certainly would've stayed if he would've been paid.
    I am glad you started this post. It is good to bring up these kind of topics sometimes as to keep it fresh in our minds that racism still exists and to firmly entrench in what we have control over to not let the horrible injustices and attrocities we faced as a nation happen again. I feel pretty confident the Twins are not a anti Latino or African American organization, but maybe we are Pro Hometown players and Pro Canadians... oops strike (Canadians), we did not resign Koskie. I agree with your view on Santana not wanting be a Twin. On the T-Hunt contract - his contract with the Angels is awful. 18M per season? He is at least 6M per season over paid... grotesque.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post
    I can't believe that somebody would call Punto a garbage player. I consider him a high level athlete! He is so talented--was a high- light reel fairly often on ESPN. Gardy and most baseball people really like him. Every team needs players like Punto. Such a team oriented player-infectious! He and players like him will always have jobs in the big leagues.

    Not for $4 million. Sorry.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    I think it would serve this community well to take a look at the underrepresentation of minorities at TwinsCentric and ask, ďwhy donít TwinsDaily and TwinsCentric hire, publish on the front page, and link to minority contributors at the same frequency as white contributors.

    Of course this is absurd, and therefore so is the question of this thread.


    Now, letís get back to baseball.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  12. #32
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    The Twins made what they thought were good baseball decisions at the time, there are too many variables, age, length of contract, reallocating resources from a position of strength to a position of weakness, players coming through the system. To suggest these moves were made to appease a fan base more fond of caucasian players is insulting.

    As an aside, as a Canadian I do find it interesting how much more prevalent these issues still are in America. Racism clearly is still alive and well but too often focus is placed on people who seem to be looking for it where it doesn't exist. Being vigilant is one thing, making unfounded, irresponsible accusations or assumptions are not. I guess that's free speech though.

    VodkaDave, you forgot Rene Tosoni and Scott Diamond, both proud Canadians!! This team has always supported the Canadian boys more than "Canada's Team" The Toronto Blue Jays (Brett Lawrie aside......man I wish we had him).

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    The argument in the story isn't that these moves were made for racial reasons. The suggestion was that a team feels more pressure to hang onto players with which that fan base identifies and a Minnesota fan base identifies more with Mauer and Nathan than Hunter and Santana.

    We can go back and forth on specifics, but I don't see any significant differences in the situations that explains why two deals got done and two didn't. If the Twins would've kept Hunter and Santana and let Mauer and Nathan go for exactly the same money, we would be saying the same thing about Mauer/Nathan that we say about Santana/Hunter: they wanted too long of a deal, they were too expensive, etc.

    That doesn't mean that the Twins made a decision based on the color of the players' skin. They may have made it because they felt like the fan base demanded it, or because they felt like the players wanted to stay more, or because they were more popular. But then the question can be asked: why would the fan base demand it more, why would the players want to stay more, why were they more popular?
    I'm guessing you think the comparable situations (closest in age) are:

    1. Joe Mauer vs. Johan Santana
    2. Torii Hunter vs. Joe Nathan

    1. Mauer was (is?) first and foremost the Minnesotan hometown boy who everybody loved (loves?). I would say he is wholly unique. He also very much wanted to stay a Twin. Santana didn't want to stay! That is the most important thing about this in his case. Should they have offered more money? Absolutely. Years? I don't know. Of course he may not have gotten hurt if he had stayed with the Twins (or, given how things are around here, his arm could have literally come off).

    2. Joe Nathan was performing at Marianoesque levels. He was definitely a top 3 closer and the Twins are crazy about their closers, as you well know. And closers don't depreciate given age nearly as much as CF. Signing Hunter for 5 years was just not wise at all (let's say 5 years, $65 million). That is a LOT different than 3 years and $34 million. In fact, weren't the Twins willing to pay Hunter something like that same amount? Or was it 3 years and $45 million?

    There are significant differences in the situations.

    (I disagree with the sentiments of many in this thread who want to totally discredit the issue, though I think riverbrian is probably correct).

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Also, the comparison with Latin American players and Nishioka is totally silly. A. The Twins invested, what, $15 million, in Nishioka. B. Latin American players are not isolated from other Spanish speakers like Nishi was/is from other Japanese speakers.

  15. #35
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    The Twins gave Kirby Puckett the most lucrative contract in MLB to keep him here. I was sad when Torii left, but I understand that economics drives everything. I don't think the Twins care what nationality a player is, they just want the BEST players that they can get. Look at Nishi...couldn't even speak English.

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .

  17. #37
    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    I wonder how this topic coexists with Torii Hunter's accusation from a couple of seasons ago that MLB teams would rather sign Latin players than African-American players because they cost less. ('Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?' was Torii's famous quote) One argument would seem to invalidate the other. Everyone looks at a thing and tends to imprint upon it their own beliefs. It's much easier to rationalize your situation when you're a victim of some greater conspiracy as opposed to just on the unfortunate side of an outcome.

    Terry Ryan is the same GM who went out and signed Shannon Stewart to bolster the Twins outfield in 2003. Stewart was in the final year of his contact. The Twins resigned him for a pretty significant chunk of change for them at that time - 3 years, 18 million dollars.

  18. #38
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .
    From all my experiences in Minnesota, you're right, that is just flat out wrong.

  19. #39
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    The writer should find actual institutional racism. Baseball, in general, does have race issues (Latin American player treatment, and its desirability to young African-Americans).

    Can't wait to see how this guy responds to the Wolves telling Michael Beasley to go away in the coming offseason while they gave K-Love that money-love

  20. #40
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    But yes, the article makes it sound like Minnesotans are white-lovin' hilljacks who just want "their own" on the team. That is just wrong. God, how people get paid to write such drivel . . .
    Bingo... I have two sons 18 and 14 years old. I want to believe with all my heart that this crap is going the way of the Dinosaur and that is the world they will live in and it will be even better for my Grand kids.

    Yes it's still out there and less and less of it everyday. That's what we do as a society... We advance!!! We get better!!! Writing this article gives the wrong impression of Minnesotans indirectly and it assumes that our front office staff are idiots because Minnesotans are. It puts the attention on false racist situations and therefore clouds the honest to god real ones that still need to be stamped out.

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