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Thread: Jose Abreu defects

  1. #161
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Just signing one of these key IFAs would be enough for me to call the offseason a success.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmb0252 View Post
    Wolfson tweeted that the Twins will have multiple scouts at Abreu's showcase next week. This is the first time I have seen the Twins linked to him in anyway.
    Wolfson also says he thinks the Twins are unlikely to sign him as the money (he suggested $55 million) was too much.

    This attitude has to change. $10 million per year is not too much for the second highest paid player on a MLB team. Ryan and everybody supporting the concept that the Twins are in the finacial class of Pittsburgh, Tampa and Oakland have to stop looking at the total contract and start looking at the money per year. Each year is budgeted independently; after all, the Twins won't carry over any money they DIDN'T use the previous year and add it to the next.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Wolfson also says he thinks the Twins are unlikely to sign him as the money (he suggested $55 million) was too much.

    This attitude has to change. $10 million per year is not too much for the second highest paid player on a MLB team. Ryan and everybody supporting the concept that the Twins are in the finacial class of Pittsburgh, Tampa and Oakland have to stop looking at the total contract and start looking at the money per year. Each year is budgeted independently; after all, the Twins won't carry over any money they DIDN'T use the previous year and add it to the next.
    Maybe, maybe not. It was recently brought to my attention on another thread, that the Pohlads made a commitment whereby on average payroll would be 50% of revenue. It one believes they made a firm commitment, it only follows that any shortages are added to the following years. It's a double-edged sword. You either believe they made a commitment to taxpayers for help with the funding of the new stadium, or you don't.

  4. #164
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. It was recently brought to my attention on another thread, that the Pohlads made a commitment whereby on average payroll would be 50% of revenue. It one believes they made a firm commitment, it only follows that any shortages are added to the following years. It's a double-edged sword. You either believe they made a commitment to taxpayers for help with the funding of the new stadium, or you don't.
    It doesn't follow. They don't do it. It would make sense to, but thy aren't the only team that doesn't operate that way. It's just 100% false that they will carry money forward.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    It doesn't follow. They don't do it. It would make sense to, but thy aren't the only team that doesn't operate that way. It's just 100% false that they will carry money forward.
    Why would the Pohlads renege on their sacred oath to the taxpayers of Hennepin County based on hypothetical other teams? I have no reason to believe they do not carry the money forward. Surely the media would report such a transgression.
    Last edited by howieramone; 09-24-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Wolfson also says he thinks the Twins are unlikely to sign him as the money (he suggested $55 million) was too much.

    This attitude has to change. $10 million per year is not too much for the second highest paid player on a MLB team. Ryan and everybody supporting the concept that the Twins are in the finacial class of Pittsburgh, Tampa and Oakland have to stop looking at the total contract and start looking at the money per year. Each year is budgeted independently; after all, the Twins won't carry over any money they DIDN'T use the previous year and add it to the next.
    I don't have problems with the Twins not spending big on 30-35 yr old FA's. Abreu, tanaka and Guerrero are different cases though since they are in their mid 20's.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Why would the Pohlads renege on their sacred oath to the taxpayers of Hennepin County based on hypothetical other teams? I have no reason to believe they do not carry the money forward. Surely the media would report such a transgression.
    People in the organization, including Pohlad himself, HAVE said that they go year to year and money doesn't carry over. This had been discussed and is well known. Why that is being challenged now is curious.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 09-24-2013 at 07:21 PM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  8. #168
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Why would the Pohlads renege on their sacred oath to the taxpayers of Hennepin County based on hypothetical other teams? I have no reason to believe they do not carry the money forward. Surely the media would report such a transgression.
    This has been explained many times but let me preface it with something that will help you listen. This is not a rip on the Twins. This is not being negative. Most every sports team that I'm aware of operates like a business, so it operates on revenues and deficits on a year-by-year basis. It closes the books in this way also. The Twins are no different than anyone else in that they don't take excess revenues and stockpile it for future years. They just don't do it.

    I'm not making any comment about the taxpayers or payroll obligations in light of that. None. I'm telling you that you're just 100% wrong to think that excess revenues will be carried forward. It's just not how they choose to operate their business, not a transgression. Hopefully snepp or one of the other guys that has the FO's qquotes on this can dig them up to once again bury this notion.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Why would the Pohlads renege on their sacred oath to the taxpayers of Hennepin County based on hypothetical other teams? I have no reason to believe they do not carry the money forward. Surely the media would report such a transgression.
    Do you truly think that in a few years if/when we're competitive, the Twins are suddenly going to blast payroll up to to $150M or something with a glut of free agent signings to make up for money not spent from other years? If so, why?

  10. #170
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    Everybody can debate on how much the Twins 'should' spend based on revenues but 2-3 yrs ago they set a budget at 100 or so million and late in the offseason they approved a late signing (pavano) pushing the payroll over 110M.

    Money from one year doesn't directly carryover to another year but there are times where a team could increase a budget to add an extra player late in the offseason or at the trade deadline. However the Twins are so far away from that being a potential issue that's it's not a consideration as far as this year's (or next year's) budget goes.

    This team simply needs to get younger so as I have said before spending like like drunken sailors to bring in old vets is silly but Abreu, Guerrero and Tanaka aren't old. The only reason to not spend on them is if the team thinks there is a good chance they are below average players. Overpaying for an average (or better) player in his prime is not a big issue with the Twins payroll flexibility for the next half decade. Overpaying (10-15M/yr) for a borderline starter/reserve would be silly. I just hope they take the chance on one of these guys or someone similar.

  11. #171
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Just signing one of these key IFAs would be enough for me to call the offseason a success.
    Honestly, other than some bullpen trades, I see them doing very little. I'm hoping that very little includes getting one of Tanaka/Abreau... Perferably Tanaka.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    This team simply needs to get younger so as I have said before spending like like drunken sailors to bring in old vets is silly but Abreu, Guerrero and Tanaka aren't old. The only reason to not spend on them is if the team thinks there is a good chance they are below average players. Overpaying for an average (or better) player in his prime is not a big issue with the Twins payroll flexibility for the next half decade.
    This. Thank you!! The Twins front office needs to stop looking at individual caps on what they are willing to spend on a player and start holding themselves to a stricter overall payroll dollar amount. If that number is 100 million there is no reason why the Twins can't over spend (on an individual bases not on an overall payroll) on a couple of these IFAs if they believe that they could positively impact our team. If the players flop, big deal. They were still within their overall budget. There really is no reason to not dish out enough money to bring in Abreu to play first when we don't have a lock to start first next season. Same with Guerrero. I don't call for coaches or GMs jobs, but if we get out bid for Tanaka and he goes elsewhere and looks close to dominate I will be writing articles about holding scouts and the GM accountable for continually failing to make the necessary moves to improve this team. I don't call for jobs because I know it doesn't do any good. No one with control will care what I have to say, but I will feel compelled to say it none-the-less.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Honestly, other than some bullpen trades, I see them doing very little. I'm hoping that very little includes getting one of Tanaka/Abreau... Perferably Tanaka.
    I honestly hope you are right. I don't want us to do too much and create more average to below average clutter when we can just use our already cluttered top of the minors to fill in if need be. There is no reason, when you have prospects getting close (mid next season) to add more players to the mix. Unless of course the player added is a true, clear cut upgrade at the position.

  14. #174
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Article on ESPN about Abreu. Jerry Crasnick talked to 4 scouts who were not big fans.





    The scouts were not impressed to say the least. One scout tossed out a contract in the range of 4 years $32-40 million. Of course he also said:




    It would be interesting to know if this tempers enthusiasm a bit.
    Its still very early, but for all the talk about Abreu's "slider bat speed" here are the fangraphs pitch values:

    Season Team wFB wSL wCT wCB wCH wSF wKN wFB/C wSL/C wCT/C wCB/C wCH/C wSF/C wKN/C
    2014 White Sox 6 3.8 0.1 -2.8 -0.4 2.8 4.84 0.33 -4.72 -7.48

    Seems to be handling fastballs ok too

  15. #175
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    I re-read the title, and asked, "really? They finally found any in him?"

  16. #176
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    I just re-read the entire thread.....kind of a depressing read actually. very little actual discussion about Abreu......

    oh, and.....

    Inner half fastballs seem to tie him up some, but apparently not everyone can throw those consistently. I wish this thread had not come back.....it depresses me.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #177
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    I think he's greatly exceeded expectations (mine included).

    Amazing how drastic the changeup to his fastball success is. Based on that...and his aforementioned struggles against inside heat (anything about 92-93 mph according to those scouts Crasnick mentioned) would wager he's probably guessing...to get around on those inside fastballs.

    At least that seems to be what I see from someone doing SO WELL against fastballs and equally worse against changeups.

  18. #178
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    Good post btw Willihammer.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Its still very early, but for all the talk about Abreu's "slider bat speed" here are the fangraphs pitch values:

    Season Team wFB wSL wCT wCB wCH wSF wKN wFB/C wSL/C wCT/C wCB/C wCH/C wSF/C wKN/C
    2014 White Sox 6 3.8 0.1 -2.8 -0.4 2.8 4.84 0.33 -4.72 -7.48

    Seems to be handling fastballs ok too
    It sounds like Oxtung's 4 scouts were clueless, or (more likely), there was an awful lot of sandbagging going on. I go with the latter, his comp numbers to current major league ex-cuban league players were too good. I posted that this one really hurt at the time of the White Sox signing. It still hurts, knowing you'd have him for the next 6 years batting right behind Sano.....

  20. #180
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    The White Sox are clearly campaigning for Abreu for ROY:

    Abreu has said he isn’t a big fan of the cold April conditions, yet it’s hard to imagine him being even more productive when the summer finally arrives.

    “He’s good,” White Sox manager Robin Ventura said. “I think he likes to hit with guys on base. I think the last few home games haven’t been ideal conditions. Even today is a little windy and cold, but he’s just a good hitter. When he hits it on the barrel, it can get out of any park. I don’t think it was necessarily carrying to left field but he has enough power to get it out of here.”

    What has convinced the White Sox that Abreu will continue to flourish is his ability to make adjustments on the fly.

    “He's up there with anybody in the league in being able to do that,” Ventura said. “I think his first go-around, pitchers probably have more of a report on him than he does of actually seeing pitchers. He's making adjustments and doing it between at-bats, between pitches. Everything has kind of been an adjustment for him. He just continues to impress.”
    Scary how good he can become with more Cuban-like weather conditions, indeed.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/19305/jose-abreus-achievements-multiplying-fast


    (Check out the fan comments in reaction to the article, very rarely in the last few years do you see Sox fans this giddy)
    Last edited by jokin; 04-28-2014 at 06:02 PM.

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