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Thread: Terry Ryan/Scott Baker 4:00 Press Conference

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    The inevitable hindsight 20/20 charge. You're missing the point, which is that Baker was apparently retained with the false hope of contention. If his risk of injury was so high that he had no trade value, then it's safe to say that

    a) the Twins should've planned on a rotation fronted by Liriano/Pavano/Blackburn

    b) the Twins should've planned on at least 90-95 losses with a rotation like that, and not bothered with Carroll and Marquis, and arguably not even Zumaya. Willingham is still Willingham, and can probably be cashed in at some point.
    No, you are missing the point. How do you know Bakwr was retained solely because they thought they were cOntenders? He was retained because he's a good pitcher. And if they kept him and he even just left as a free agent after performing well, that also has value in the form of draft pick compensation.
    Last edited by Kneelb4zerg; 04-11-2012 at 06:51 PM.

  2. #62
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    No way I know enough to criticize the medical staff. I will criticize whoever is collecting the Twins player voodoo dolls and the manufacturer of the push pins.

  3. #63
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaDave View Post
    Again Rizotti is a 26 year old DH guy. He has zero value in the field, none. This is why guys like him are easy to come by. Slick fielding MI or even OF who can hit are not easy to come by. It's pretty simple.
    ...and AGAIN, if that kind of player were easy for the Twins to find, they would've found one in 2011. They didn't. They used two roster spots on Jeff Bailey and Aaron Bates instead. They're not only not the hitter that Rizzo probably is, they're also older. In Bailey's case, much older.

    If making a Rizzo appear out of thin air were so easy, why didn't they do so in 2011? Was it because there could be no possible need for him, what with Morneau being unavailable or awful the entire season, Thome being 102 years old and likely to be shipped out in a trade, a ton of other guys passing through the Twins' revolving door DL, and zero power-hitting prospects in the high minors? Is that why?

    Also, there's a difference between not adding value in the field and not being able to play the field. Since Rizzotti falls into the former group, it's not accurate to call him a "DH guy".

    But even if he were just a DH, he'd still have some potential value at the major league level since he can hit and, in a shocking development, it turns out that the Twins play in a DH league.

    That's a fact that even the Twins seemed to have overlooked (with the brief, flyer-ish exception of Thome) since they banished David Ortiz to Boston for the crimes of being a DH guy and hitting too many home runs.

    So I can't blame you for overlooking it as well.

    One more thing. Baseball Prospectus ironically (and unfortunately for you and your weak argument) characterized Rizzotti as a guy who "might be a good trade chip for second-division team". They also pointed out that his value to the Philly organization was heavily diminished by their farm system being far too left-handed, which explains much of their lack of interest in retaining him.

    Remember how you glibly dismissed every contrary opinion about the possible role of the Twins' medical and training staff in the Baker injury because those critics weren't doctors? Well, here's a medical analogy for your arguments re: Rizzo.

    Baseball Prospectus is the Mayo Clinic of baseball performance evaluation and prediction. You're a guy sleeping on a steam grate behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge.

    I'm going with the Mayo's opinion instead of yours, steam grate vodka man.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 04-11-2012 at 09:59 PM.

  4. #64
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Wait..what??

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    ...and AGAIN, if that kind of player were easy for the Twins to find, they would've found one in 2011. They didn't. They used two roster spots on Jeff Bailey and Aaron Bates instead. They're not only not the hitter that Rizzo probably is, they're also older. In Bailey's case, much older.

    If making a Rizzo appear out of thin air were so easy, why didn't they do so in 2011? Was it because there could be no possible need for him, what with Morneau being unavailable or awful the entire season, Thome being 102 years old and likely to be shipped out in a trade, a ton of other guys passing through the Twins' revolving door DL, and zero power-hitting prospects in the high minors? Is that why?

    Also, there's a difference between not adding value in the field and not being able to play the field. Since Rizzotti falls into the former group, it's not accurate to call him a "DH guy".

    But even if he were just a DH, he'd still have some potential value at the major league level since he can hit and, in a shocking development, it turns out that the Twins play in a DH league.

    That's a fact that even the Twins seemed to have overlooked (with the brief, flyer-ish exception of Thome) since they banished David Ortiz to Boston for the crimes of being a DH guy and hitting too many home runs.

    So I can't blame you for overlooking it as well.

    One more thing. Baseball Prospectus ironically (and unfortunately for you and your weak argument) characterized Rizzotti as a guy who "might be a good trade chip for second-division team". They also pointed out that his value to the Philly organization was heavily diminished by their farm system being far too left-handed, which explains much of their lack of interest in retaining him.

    Remember how you glibly dismissed every contrary opinion about the possible role of the Twins' medical and training staff in the Baker injury because those critics weren't doctors? Well, here's a medical analogy for your arguments re: Rizzo.

    Baseball Prospectus is the Mayo Clinic of baseball performance evaluation and prediction. You're a guy sleeping on a steam grate behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge.

    I'm going with the Mayo's opinion instead of yours, steam grate vodka man.
    The Mayo-Clinic-Of-Baseball-Performance-Evaluation-And-Prediction (can we refer to them as TMCOBPEAP from now on?) said he "might be a good trade chip for a second-division team?"

    No kidding??!!

    Well, hey. Start carving the Cooperstown Bust NOW!

    And for the record, there was NO WAY IN HELL the Twins were trading Baker this past winter. None. Zilch. Zippo. For multiple reasons. And I'm skeptical, at best, that you didn't just come up with that idea today. That opinion comes from me...the Walter Reed Hospital of bullsh!t detection and evaluation.

    You sorta nailed your description of Dave, though. Gotta give you that.
    Last edited by USAFChief; 04-11-2012 at 10:22 PM.

  5. #65
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    You sir are missing the point completely.. and your hyperbole only makes you look further ridiculous.

    edit: this is in response to the post two above (not USAFCHIEF)
    Last edited by VodkaDave; 04-11-2012 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The Mayo-Clinic-Of-Baseball-Performance-Evaluation-And-Prediction (can we refer to them as TMCOBPEAP from now on?) said he "might be a good trade chip for a second-division team?"

    No kidding??!!

    Well, hey. Start carving the Cooperstown Bust NOW!

    And for the record, there was NO WAY IN HELL the Twins were trading Baker this past winter. None. Zilch. Zippo. For multiple reasons. And I'm skeptical, at best, that you didn't just come up with that idea today. That opinion comes from me...the Walter Reed Hospital of bullsh!t detection and evaluation.
    Haha very nice! +1 all around!

  7. #67
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaDave View Post
    Haha very nice! +1 all around!
    Just so's ya know, Dave...you are henceforth and forever more "a guy sleeping on a steam grate behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge" at BYTO.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Just so's ya know, Dave...you are henceforth and forever more "a guy sleeping on a steam grate behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge" at BYTO.
    Fine by me. Steam Grates are prime real estate here in NYC! Free heating, where as guy sleeping in the alley behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge has to deal with starting nightly hobo trashcan fires.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    If making a Rizzo appear out of thin air were so easy, why didn't they do so in 2011? Was it because there could be no possible need for him, what with Morneau being unavailable or awful the entire season, Thome being 102 years old and likely to be shipped out in a trade, a ton of other guys passing through the Twins' revolving door DL, and zero power-hitting prospects in the high minors? Is that why?

    Also, there's a difference between not adding value in the field and not being able to play the field. Since Rizzotti falls into the former group, it's not accurate to call him a "DH guy".

    But even if he were just a DH, he'd still have some potential value at the major league level since he can hit and, in a shocking development, it turns out that the Twins play in a DH league.

    That's a fact that even the Twins seemed to have overlooked (with the brief, flyer-ish exception of Thome) since they banished David Ortiz to Boston for the crimes of being a DH guy and hitting too many home runs.

    So I can't blame you for overlooking it as well.

    One more thing. Baseball Prospectus ironically (and unfortunately for you and your weak argument) characterized Rizzotti as a guy who "might be a good trade chip for second-division team". They also pointed out that his value to the Philly organization was heavily diminished by their farm system being far too left-handed, which explains much of their lack of interest in retaining him.
    I actually couldn't find that trade chip thing, but I really don't care. On the subject of BP they project Rizzotti as a .251/.326/.411 hitter if he were to play in the majors this year. I'm sure a great baseball mind like yourself already realizes that a line like that out of your DH is actually quite awful, and also would be awful out of your first baseman (which would be assuming your 1st baseman at least brought some defensive of value...which he doesn't)

    Once again, I thought the Rizzotti move was fine but it's not this organization changing move like you are trying to claim? Or something? I'm actually not even sure of the point you are trying to make.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    ...and AGAIN, if that kind of player were easy for the Twins to find, they would've found one in 2011. They didn't. They used two roster spots on Jeff Bailey and Aaron Bates instead. They're not only not the hitter that Rizzo probably is, they're also older. In Bailey's case, much older.

    If making a Rizzo appear out of thin air were so easy, why didn't they do so in 2011? Was it because there could be no possible need for him, what with Morneau being unavailable or awful the entire season, Thome being 102 years old and likely to be shipped out in a trade, a ton of other guys passing through the Twins' revolving door DL, and zero power-hitting prospects in the high minors? Is that why?

    Also, there's a difference between not adding value in the field and not being able to play the field. Since Rizzotti falls into the former group, it's not accurate to call him a "DH guy".

    But even if he were just a DH, he'd still have some potential value at the major league level since he can hit and, in a shocking development, it turns out that the Twins play in a DH league.

    That's a fact that even the Twins seemed to have overlooked (with the brief, flyer-ish exception of Thome) since they banished David Ortiz to Boston for the crimes of being a DH guy and hitting too many home runs.

    So I can't blame you for overlooking it as well.

    One more thing. Baseball Prospectus ironically (and unfortunately for you and your weak argument) characterized Rizzotti as a guy who "might be a good trade chip for second-division team". They also pointed out that his value to the Philly organization was heavily diminished by their farm system being far too left-handed, which explains much of their lack of interest in retaining him.

    Remember how you glibly dismissed every contrary opinion about the possible role of the Twins' medical and training staff in the Baker injury because those critics weren't doctors? Well, here's a medical analogy for your arguments re: Rizzo.

    Baseball Prospectus is the Mayo Clinic of baseball performance evaluation and prediction. You're a guy sleeping on a steam grate behind the Mayo Clinic of baseball knowledge.

    I'm going with the Mayo's opinion instead of yours, steam grate vodka man.

    That is quite the rant my man, quite the rant. Here's the point, the Twins needed and wanted Baker, he's a good pitcher. They weren't going to trade him nor should they have, the 20/20 hindsight charge sticks, it's what you're doing.

  11. #71
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I actually had to read the thread a couple of times to get the connection between Baker and Matt Rizotti and the Mayo Clinic and Steam Grates. When you read it the second time... It becomes much clearer.

    If you think about what Labombo is saying... its quite simple... Think of it this way.

    Willy Mo Pena signed with a Japanese team this winter. He was walking through the woods to get there and he ran across the pope and you know what the pope does in the woods. Therefore Rizzoti likes Gorillas as long as they are not rogue and the Mayo Clinic has a steam grate which is the source of all information contained in the head of George Will. Vodkadave sleeps on this Steam grate blocking anything from flowing in and out. Which makes George Will dizzy but it also contains the Gorillas and Rizzoti is much happier. Therefore Scott Baker could have been traded to the D-Backs and the Twins would have gotten Trevor Bauer and Willy Mo Pena in return. But now Pena is in Japan and its the fault of the medical staff because all the pope wanted was some privacy.

    Its really elementary.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Willy Mo Pena signed with a Japanese team this winter. He was walking through the woods to get there and he ran across the pope and you know what the pope does in the woods. Therefore Rizzoti likes Gorillas as long as they are not rogue and the Mayo Clinic has a steam grate which is the source of all information contained in the head of George Will. Vodkadave sleeps on this Steam grate blocking anything from flowing in and out. Which makes George Will dizzy but it also contains the Gorillas and Rizzoti is much happier. Therefore Scott Baker could have been traded to the D-Backs and the Twins would have gotten Trevor Bauer and Willy Mo Pena in return. But now Pena is in Japan and its the fault of the medical staff because all the pope wanted was some privacy...



    ...and the death spiral continues.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Triple-A gil4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    No way I know enough to criticize the medical staff. I will criticize whoever is collecting the Twins player voodoo dolls and the manufacturer of the push pins.
    I think it's Ozzie. He moved to Miami to have easier access to supply, so watch out.

  14. #74
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Willy Mo Pena signed with a Japanese team this winter. He was walking through the woods to get there and he ran across the pope and you know what the pope does in the woods. Therefore Rizzoti likes Gorillas as long as they are not rogue and the Mayo Clinic has a steam grate which is the source of all information contained in the head of George Will. Vodkadave sleeps on this Steam grate blocking anything from flowing in and out. Which makes George Will dizzy but it also contains the Gorillas and Rizzoti is much happier. Therefore Scott Baker could have been traded to the D-Backs and the Twins would have gotten Trevor Bauer and Willy Mo Pena in return. But now Pena is in Japan and its the fault of the medical staff because all the pope wanted was some privacy...



    ...and the death spiral continues.
    It's a dry sense of humor and I get stared at a lot because of it. I apologize.

  15. #75
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gil4 View Post
    I think it's Ozzie. He moved to Miami to have easier access to supply, so watch out.
    It could be. Therefore I won't feel bad about Ozzies suspension for admiring his old catcher Ramon Castro.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I was locked and loaded to go ballistic (again) on the Twins med staff for this, but I can understand this one. First, here's some info on this injury:

    http://www.drdavidgeier.com/injuries...onator-strain/

    The usual diagnosis for this is rest - ONCE it is confirmed that it isn't the ulnar ligament, usually from an MRI. That's why the Twins, a week ago, said the MRI was good news. But this tendon has apparently been through enough that it appears the problems is chronic, or can't be pitched through. Thus, the "clean up" surgery, which I assume means smoothing out (or snipping) some frayed pieces of tendon.

    I could argue the Twins should have done an MRI a month ago, but I don't know if it would have changed much.
    Baker has had elbow problems for much of the past several years... How much "rest" did he need. My frustration is that I'd think this should have been done last October.

  17. #77
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    Comparing Rizotti to Baker is kind of ridiculous. The Twins got Rizotti for cash considerations precisely because guys like that are fairly easy to come by. He was signed as depth, and he might get a Garret Jones type shot should the injury bug bite... and if he makes good on it, great. But the Twins, like the Phillies, know that isn't likely, which was why he was cheap.

    Baker is a different animal. He's not cheap and will cost 9.5 M next year to someone who wants him, and with the injury, there's a big question mark as to what he's going to look like. I doubt teams would risk 9.5M plus a prospect to take that chance, especially since Baker will likely be an FA and sign for a 40 man roster spot and a few mil plus incentives. If he and the Twins have a good relationship, this might be the time they consider signing him to a 1 year cheap deal with an option that kicks in for 2 or 3 years at a nice salary should he do well, but other than that, Baker is going to be an FA next year, and he won't be making what he will this season.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Willy Mo Pena signed with a Japanese team this winter. He was walking through the woods to get there and he ran across the pope and you know what the pope does in the woods. Therefore Rizzoti likes Gorillas as long as they are not rogue and the Mayo Clinic has a steam grate which is the source of all information contained in the head of George Will. Vodkadave sleeps on this Steam grate blocking anything from flowing in and out. Which makes George Will dizzy but it also contains the Gorillas and Rizzoti is much happier. Therefore Scott Baker could have been traded to the D-Backs and the Twins would have gotten Trevor Bauer and Willy Mo Pena in return. But now Pena is in Japan and its the fault of the medical staff because all the pope wanted was some privacy.

    Its really elementary.
    Best post I've read on this site yet.

  19. #79
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    It's a dry sense of humor and I get stared at a lot because of it. I apologize.
    Don't apologize...the post was hilarious. I was making a poor attempt to add to genius. I should know better.

  20. #80
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Thanks... I will carry on... I'm posting alot because I'm trying to reach the AAA level.

    Actually... I love this site... I'm such a Baseball Nut and Twins fan. My friends around here can't keep up with me and I really have no one to REALLY talk about the Twins and baseball. People like us can kind of be isolated in that sense.

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