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Thread: Do the 2012 Twins lack heart?

  1. #41
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    And yet, "giving 100 percent 100 percent of the time" is equally vague. How the hell do you know?
    Shane I don't and can't and the last thing I want to do is give anyone the impression that I can. The one thing I know for sure is this. They are human flesh and blood just like you and me. They have great jobs that most of us would have killed for. They want to keep those jobs as long as they can but they are human. Its 162 games and they are human. Losing makes it worse and winning makes it better. It's a job and they are human. Thinking the nose is constantly to the grindstone is misguided and the ability to keep your nose to the grindstone in adverse conditions and times of celebration is my definition of heart.

    Its my definition and it doesn't mean that I'm right because the answer will always be vague. But I'm pretty sure that they are Human just like us and therefore the human element exists in varying degrees.

  2. #42
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Shane I don't and can't and the last thing I want to do is give anyone the impression that I can. The one thing I know for sure is this. They are human flesh and blood just like you and me. They have great jobs that most of us would have killed for. They want to keep those jobs as long as they can but they are human. Its 162 games and they are human. Losing makes it worse and winning makes it better. It's a job and they are human. Thinking the nose is constantly to the grindstone is misguided and the ability to keep your nose to the grindstone in adverse conditions and times of celebration is my definition of heart.

    Its my definition and it doesn't mean that I'm right because the answer will always be vague. But I'm pretty sure that they are Human just like us and therefore the human element exists in varying degrees.
    I'm not sure I'm clear on this, bri...are they human?

  3. #43
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I'm not sure I'm clear on this, bri...are they human?
    lol... I'm glad you noticed... I was debating with myself if I should underline the word. Did I put the word in enough? My other draft had the word in 74 times and I liked it but 27 times the autocorrect spelled hussies and 14 times it spelled blue man group. I changed cuz I thought it would be confusing.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    OK, well that is true about every team and every group of people working any job. Looking at the emotion on display for all of these games and I see nothing about lacking heart. These guys want to win.

  5. #45
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I'm not sure I'm clear on this, bri...are they human?
    I think he's saying they are varying degrees of human but not 100% of the time, apparently some of them are aliens, like Jamey Carroll, is that a degree of human?

    One thing I didn't know was that humans are part of the elemental table, this is shaking my entire existence.

    I also don't try at work ALL the time and now I'm not sure I have a heart.............I'm going to the doctor.

  6. #46
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    I think he's saying they are varying degrees of human but not 100% of the time, apparently some of them are aliens, like Jamey Carroll, is that a degree of human?One thing I didn't know was that humans are part of the elemental table, this is shaking my entire existence. I also don't try at work ALL the time and now I'm not sure I have a heart.............I'm going to the doctor.
    There you go... My work here is done. If I can reach just one person... It is all worth it. Cue the 80's outfit Human League and sing along. Your only Human.

  7. #47
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    OK, well that is true about every team and every group of people working any job. Looking at the emotion on display for all of these games and I see nothing about lacking heart. These guys want to win.
    It is true for every team and every group of people working any job thats my point. I don't believe its a zero sum game. Baseball players are flawed just like that guy who works next to you and quickly alt-tabs back to the spread sheet when the boss walks by but even that guy... Mr. Alt-tab can do some amazing creative stuff from time to time.

    They are... What's that word I'm looking for... Tip of my tongue... Well... I think they are... Human.

    Combine this vague heart notion that i firmly believe exists. Toss In some luck and how the heart reacts to that. Then a big scoop of raw talent and mix it up.

  8. #48
    After back to back comeback wins we can all conclude this Borzi article was a hack-job waste of everyone's time now, right?
    AKA: TMW

  9. #49
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    There you go... My work here is done. If I can reach just one person... It is all worth it. Cue the 80's outfit Human League and sing along. Your only Human.
    Strangely, I'm starting to understand..........well done.

  10. #50
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Strangely, I'm starting to understand..........well done.
    lol... now that you understand... I'm hoping you can explain it to me. I'm still lost... lol...

    One thing I always notice about Sports Fans. They seem to always assume that the result of a game depends on the team you are cheering for. For example... "The Vikings Defense sure sucked today" Was it bad defense(it's the vikings... of course it was) but for example... Was it bad defense or did the other team just have a fantastic offensive day. They always seem to forget the other teams part of the equation. Both teams are trying to win and have to be factored in but seemingly rarely are.

    Did the Twins come back on Heart yesterday or did the Angels Pitching staff throw up a series of poorly timed cookies. Is it possible that the Angels pitching was bad enough yesterday that Tulane University would have come back against them. I don't know... but at this point... I choose to believe in the Twins but still question the overall heart of this team until I see more moments like yesterday.

    Did Mauer choke with the bases loaded because of lack of heart or did Dan Haren shut him down with great pitches? Two teams are playing... Each have their own personal human issues and luck or bad luck and skill sets and they both want to win.

    In the end... Someone has to step up and make a play at the right time and someone has to do it again tomorrow.

  11. #51
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    what I will say about this is that most people don't particularly care for their jobs, and ball players aren't an exception to that. They just happen to make a lot more doing it.

    I'm lucky to enjoy my job. I travel a lot, and not as much as ball players do, and that can wear a person down quite a bit. Being a ball player isn't all fun and games. It doesn't excuse lack of heart, but it isn't as though these guys don't have a very grueling and taxing job to do over the next six months.

  12. #52
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    what I will say about this is that most people don't particularly care for their jobs, and ball players aren't an exception to that. They just happen to make a lot more doing it.

    I'm lucky to enjoy my job. I travel a lot, and not as much as ball players do, and that can wear a person down quite a bit. Being a ball player isn't all fun and games. It doesn't excuse lack of heart, but it isn't as though these guys don't have a very grueling and taxing job to do over the next six months.
    Don't forget to factor in the pressure... Fans like us ready to boo and throw things at the drop of a hat... Sportswriters ready to pounce at any mis-step... Facing the World's best every single day who try to make them fail. No real support besides teammates because you leave your family pretty much for 6 months of the year... and to take the pressure to the highest level... a stable of young hungry talent in lower levels pushing to take their job away from them. Coupled with a manager who will lose his job over placing support in the wrong spot and GM's with trigger fingers pushed by a different level of pressure.

    If you had that kind of pressure day in and day out. You would have to remove yourself from it from time to time or go insane... Sometimes it happens on the field.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 04-13-2012 at 09:36 AM.

  13. #53
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    lol... now that you understand... I'm hoping you can explain it to me. I'm still lost... lol...

    One thing I always notice about Sports Fans. They seem to always assume that the result of a game depends on the team you are cheering for. For example... "The Vikings Defense sure sucked today" Was it bad defense(it's the vikings... of course it was) but for example... Was it bad defense or did the other team just have a fantastic offensive day. They always seem to forget the other teams part of the equation. Both teams are trying to win and have to be factored in but seemingly rarely are.

    Did the Twins come back on Heart yesterday or did the Angels Pitching staff throw up a series of poorly timed cookies. Is it possible that the Angels pitching was bad enough yesterday that Tulane University would have come back against them. I don't know... but at this point... I choose to believe in the Twins but still question the overall heart of this team until I see more moments like yesterday.

    Did Mauer choke with the bases loaded because of lack of heart or did Dan Haren shut him down with great pitches? Two teams are playing... Each have their own personal human issues and luck or bad luck and skill sets and they both want to win.

    In the end... Someone has to step up and make a play at the right time and someone has to do it again tomorrow.
    I'd try to explain it, but I've already done my thesis at school, not doing another.

    I think what you're referring to in this post is commonly called "The Blinders" which I find a lot of sports fans wear a lot (particularly my father when the Twins lose)." Dad, did you happen to notice the other guys wearing Red and white this week? Some of them are pretty good, don't you think?"

    With 18 players on the field for 9 innings that's why so much of it is mental, or is it heart? Did Mauer and Morneau lack heart when the left the bases loaded early on or did they make some mental mistakes swinging at some bad pitches? Did Haren just beat them with good stuff, probably? Was Joe's home run off Haren a bad pitch (a mental mistake) or did Mauer just keep his head in the game and make a great swing when he had to, not Haren's fault, just a great swing.

    Liriano clearly sucked and the Gophers could have built a 6-0 lead, maybe that's why the bullpen did so well, Frankie set the bar so low, the Angels couldn't rise up to the new standard because they were used to seeing gopher balls? (pun unintended).

    I think the best guys just stay mentally focused at all times, that doesn't always guarantee success but when the opportunity arises they are prepared. Mornie's HR was a pretty good example of that, it didn't take long for him to go from pariah to hero and for everyone to forget that he was seemingly having a bad game before that, or was he?

    That's a tough thing to quantify.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    OK, well that is true about every team and every group of people working any job. Looking at the emotion on display for all of these games and I see nothing about lacking heart. These guys want to win.
    Shane - do you think they all want to win the same amount? Marty Cordova admitted that he wanted the team to lose rather than o to extra innings. Is it possible a guy like Plouffe might just be ecstatic about bringing in 450k, win or lose?

  15. #55
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    I'd try to explain it, but I've already done my thesis at school, not doing another.

    I think what you're referring to in this post is commonly called "The Blinders" which I find a lot of sports fans wear a lot (particularly my father when the Twins lose)." Dad, did you happen to notice the other guys wearing Red and white this week? Some of them are pretty good, don't you think?"

    With 18 players on the field for 9 innings that's why so much of it is mental, or is it heart? Did Mauer and Morneau lack heart when the left the bases loaded early on or did they make some mental mistakes swinging at some bad pitches? Did Haren just beat them with good stuff, probably? Was Joe's home run off Haren a bad pitch (a mental mistake) or did Mauer just keep his head in the game and make a great swing when he had to, not Haren's fault, just a great swing.

    Liriano clearly sucked and the Gophers could have built a 6-0 lead, maybe that's why the bullpen did so well, Frankie set the bar so low, the Angels couldn't rise up to the new standard because they were used to seeing gopher balls? (pun unintended).

    I think the best guys just stay mentally focused at all times, that doesn't always guarantee success but when the opportunity arises they are prepared. Mornie's HR was a pretty good example of that, it didn't take long for him to go from pariah to hero and for everyone to forget that he was seemingly having a bad game before that, or was he?

    That's a tough thing to quantify.
    Today... The Twins fans are saying what a great come back by the Twins. The Angels Fans are saying Jeez... The Angels sure sucked yesterday blowing a lead like that to the Twins.

    On the question of effort. This doesn't prove anything but has anyone every wondered why some players seem to have their best seasons in contract years? You see and hear that all the time... It makes me wonder what is going on! But again... that doesn't prove anything... Just something to think about it on the subject of heart.

    Here's an individual player thought that bugs me a little. Ryan Doumit... again I'm happy he's with the club. However, if you think about his career.

    Decent stats for a catcher. In Fact... for a catcher... damn good batting stats. Athletic enough to at least attempt to play multiple positions. By all reports a real strong arm... A veteren who has been playing major league baseball for quite some time and has been exposed to the best coaching in the world.

    With that experience and a strong arm to boot... Why is he not a better defensive catcher? If he has the tools(strong arm) and opportunity(lack of superstar blocking him in Pittsburgh) and exposure to world class training. What gives here... It's just a matter of footwork behind the plate. Something that you should be able to master over the length of time he has been playing the game... Why is he not a better defensive catcher?

    He hits enough to be a gold mine behind the plate yet he couldn't lock down a starting job with the Pirates who have never had an elite catcher blocking his path. This throws a red flag with me. Could it be that he simply hasn't worked as hard as he should at it? I don't know... I have no way of knowing but I'm going to watch and make my own mind up before I assume. Until then... those clues are hard for me to ignore but I will try.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 04-13-2012 at 10:44 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harrison Greeley III View Post
    After back to back comeback wins we can all conclude this Borzi article was a hack-job waste of everyone's time now, right?
    Probably accurate but incomplete. "Before, during, and..." added to the beginning would fix that up!

  17. #57
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    Probably accurate but incomplete. "Before, during, and..." added to the beginning would fix that up!
    Precisely. Does Borzi get paid to write that nonsense? Maybe he is only in it for the paycheck and lacks heart (clearly lacking a brain).

  18. #58
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    One thing I always notice about Sports Fans. They seem to always assume that the result of a game depends on the team you are cheering for. For example... "The Vikings Defense sure sucked today" Was it bad defense(it's the vikings... of course it was) but for example... Was it bad defense or did the other team just have a fantastic offensive day. They always seem to forget the other teams part of the equation. Both teams are trying to win and have to be factored in but seemingly rarely are.
    It's a fair point, and I don't think it's unique to MN fans. I'll tell you what the Angels announcers were talking about before the game - how their bullpen needs to start throwing up some zeroes. I can only imagine how big of a topic that is today. Did the Twins "never say die" attitude win the game, or did the Angles bullpen implode? Or (perish the thought) was Mauer's even keel approach the real difference. It is what started the comeback, right?

    On a different tact and just to defend Borzi a little, this is an exceedingly difficult point to make. It can't be quantified. It can't hold up to any objective analysis. But a lot of knowledge is like that - hell, most knowledge is like that - and it can be exceedingly important. I can't quantify the "eyes" that girl just made at me, and if I do, I'm sure to find no evidence she wants me to talk to her. But because of that look, I know she does, and because of that I do, and because of that we become life partners. That's important knowledge.

    Borzi sees something in this team (and has probably seen it in last year's team, too). He wants to express it. He finds a comparison point (the 2002 team). I might not agree with it, I might not see the same thing, but I find it insincere to tear it apart because it lacks objective evidence. There can't be any objective evidence on that kind of story. Better to cite counter examples, I think.

  19. #59
    It's a very perceptual point to make. Baseball is a game of variance. .300 hitters don't hit 3 times every 10 ABs on cue. Stuff varies. Competition levels vary. Psychology varies. To pile on to the variance and go chicken little after every 4 game skid, then talk World Series after a 5 game hot streak is silly and cowardly. But yes, it is human to react that way. I just think a quacky point about character deserves to be held accountable when it's exposed as the charlatan's ca-ca that it is when it is decisively contradicted less than 48 hours later.
    AKA: TMW

  20. #60
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    It's a fair point, and I don't think it's unique to MN fans. I'll tell you what the Angels announcers were talking about before the game - how their bullpen needs to start throwing up some zeroes. I can only imagine how big of a topic that is today. Did the Twins "never say die" attitude win the game, or did the Angles bullpen implode? Or (perish the thought) was Mauer's even keel approach the real difference. It is what started the comeback, right?

    On a different tact and just to defend Borzi a little, this is an exceedingly difficult point to make. It can't be quantified. It can't hold up to any objective analysis. But a lot of knowledge is like that - hell, most knowledge is like that - and it can be exceedingly important. I can't quantify the "eyes" that girl just made at me, and if I do, I'm sure to find no evidence she wants me to talk to her. But because of that look, I know she does, and because of that I do, and because of that we become life partners. That's important knowledge.

    Borzi sees something in this team (and has probably seen it in last year's team, too). He wants to express it. He finds a comparison point (the 2002 team). I might not agree with it, I might not see the same thing, but I find it insincere to tear it apart because it lacks objective evidence. There can't be any objective evidence on that kind of story. Better to cite counter examples, I think.
    John, I wish I could write as smoothly as you can. That was well said.

    I also would like to thank you for this site. It provides me a chance to escape my isolated baseball passion and share it with others of my ilk. Not to mention the chance to divert my attention away from my wife(who is wonderful by the way) asking me to fix the window outside.

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