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Thread: Liriano

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I'm in a small minority, but I thought the Twins should have extended Liriano (cheaply) last year. Too good of an arm to let go for basically nothing, especially for an organization so short on quality arms.
    I admit that I didn't mind seeing him go, despite the lack of depth at starter. I wonder if he "figured it out" and he would have had a similar statistical first half of 2013 with the Twins, or if it is the change in scenery/team/defense/ballpark/league that is playing the larger role in his success. It's good to see Liriano have some success. I hope he can sustain it. I was wrong about him last season.

  2. #22
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    I agree that Liriano wouldn't have success under Rick Anderson, except for that time when he had success under Rick Anderson in 2010.

    If this was Anderson's fault, Don Cooper would have gotten something out of Liriano last season but he was awful for the White Sox.

    Is it really so hard to admit that the pitcher himself might be responsible for his performance, both good and bad? Pitching coaches can certainly try to tweak things but they can't go out to the mound and throw for the guy.

    I will never understand why people have to lay blame for. every. single. thing. that. happens.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourHouseIsMyHouse View Post
    Who's that new Pirates ace? I've been following this guy and he's pretty good. I was thinking it might be Cole or Taillon, but this one throws lefty. Someone help me out?
    Jeff Locke?

  4. #24
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    I don't think it is the pitching coach at all, I think he's healthy again. That simple. Maybe some small change in pitches also. But blaming Anderson seems a bit too easy.
    Lighten up Francis....

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Liriano was coming into free agency after a year in which he was posting a 5 ERA. He would have gladly listened to a 3 yr offer. Gladly.

    He ended up with $1M in guaranteed money from the Pirates. He and his agent aren't stupid.
    He agreed to a 2/12.75 deal with Pittsburgh. The "$1 million guaranteed" clause was because he hurt his non-throwing arm before they finalized the deal -- it was never likely to affect the original total value.

    Even if his 2011-2012 struggles were not necessarily the product of Anderson, Gardy, Target Field, etc., I doubt Liriano was interested in signing a similar deal with the Twins. Certainly he would not have been interested last summer, when he still had a few months to help his value.

  6. #26
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't think it is the pitching coach at all, I think he's healthy again. That simple. Maybe some small change in pitches also. But blaming Anderson seems a bit too easy.
    I'd call it lazy, honestly.

    And I don't even like Rick Anderson that much. I think, at best, he's a mediocre-to-decent pitching coach who hasn't evolved enough as the years progressed.

    There are plenty of reasons to get irritated with the coaching staff on this team. I cannot see how Liriano is one of those reasons. The guy appears to be an emotional rollercoaster and after trying to get the best out of him for half a decade (and even succeeding a couple of times), it was time for both parties to move on. There is simply no need for every organizational move to turn into a finger-pointing contest.

  7. #27
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    Liriano was a head case, I'm glad he moved on - but you knew he had talent that there was a good chance that he'd figure it out, like he is now.

  8. #28
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    I think some folks are forgetting he's only thrown 76 innings this season and in my humble opinion, he's MUCH more likely to blow up or get injured than he is to continue pitching like he has been in said 76 innings. I would've figured most of you have seen enough stretches of Liriano success, followed by significantly longer stretches of mind blowing incompetence to be at least somewhat skeptical about him being able to maintain this level of pitching for any significant period of time.

    If he can maintain good numbers over the next year and not start going mental out there on the mound or blow out his arm throwing all those sliders, good for him. He's an exciting pitcher to watch when he's on, but I'm far beyond getting my feathers ruffled over another team getting less than half a season worth of success from him. Give him 200+ innings for the Pirates and we'll see what tune they're singing about him then.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    It is not Anderson. Anderson wanted him to abandon the four seamer and just throw the sinker, slider and change. That's basically waht he is doing this year.

    I'm sure there are many factors, but the biggest one is familiarity. When you pitch five times a year against the same teams, they eventually figure you out. He's the same lazy head case he was in 2010 and 2011. He's just facing different hitters. I wager his success will diminish as teams figure out how to lay off the slider, and wait him out, as the Tigers did.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  10. #30
    He's pitching for money. Him and his agent saw the lackluster response he got s a free agent (and why Pittsburgh ante up what they did -- originally for him -- is beyond belief). The tell will be next season, when he is again playing for money. If he keeps his head straight, he can dominate. Hopefully he's not staining his arm!
    Joel Thingvall
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    rosterman at www.twinscards.com

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    It is not Anderson. Anderson wanted him to abandon the four seamer and just throw the sinker, slider and change. That's basically waht he is doing this year.
    I am curious how you know this.

    The other thing that's probably worth mentioning is that Liriano is now throwing to Russell Martin. We can argue how much framing really affects a guy's ERA and IP, but by some measures, Martin has single-handedly taken the Pirates from one of the worst framing teams to one of the best. Coincidentally their pitching staff as a whole has gotten a lot better.

  12. #32

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    I am curious how you know this.
    After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

    A. Stick to the sinker
    B. Locate the sinker
    C. Locate the change
    D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

    Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

    I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

    Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example).

    So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.
    ------------------------

    The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball

    It’s interesting when you look at the final column. The second-most-improved team is the Tigers, at plus-eight. Then the Pirates are all the way up there at plus-21, having signed Martin away from the Yankees in free agency even though the Yankees didn’t have a sound backup plan. Martin has singlehandedly turned this from a weakness into a strength.

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

    Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example).

    So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.
    ------------------------

    The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball
    At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

    The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

    There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

    The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

    There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.
    I agree for the most part. But you have to admit, if there's one area where a coach could really have a direct impact, its pitch selection.

    Did Anderson and Mauer put plans together pre-game? What were the extent of those plans? From the quote in Parker's article, its hard to tell if Anderson was just being sort of agreeable, in which case you wonder if the Twins appreciated how important using the sinker instead of the 4 seemer might have been for Liriano. I for one am struck by how well that usage has correlated to Liriano's success over the years.

    Or, was Anderson micromanaging Liriano's pitch selection more than he betrayed in that quote, in which case he may have been, on occassion, mis-micromanaging him? Its a perfectly valid question to ask, I think.

  17. #37
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

    A. Stick to the sinker
    B. Locate the sinker
    C. Locate the change
    D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

    Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

    I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument.
    Can you show us a couple of those quotes?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I agree that Liriano wouldn't have success under Rick Anderson, except for that time when he had success under Rick Anderson in 2010.

    If this was Anderson's fault, Don Cooper would have gotten something out of Liriano last season but he was awful for the White Sox.


    Is it really so hard to admit that the pitcher himself might be responsible for his performance, both good and bad? Pitching coaches can certainly try to tweak things but they can't go out to the mound and throw for the guy.

    I will never understand why people have to lay blame for. every. single. thing. that. happens.
    Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by launchingthrees View Post
    Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.
    I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

    Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

    Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

    It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by big dog View Post
    I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

    Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

    Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

    It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?
    Jason Marquis 3.28 K/9 Twins 7.6 K/9 Padres
    Jesse Crain 6.22 K/9 Twins 10.56 K/9 Sox
    Kyle Lohse 5.01 K/9 Twins 5.60 K/9 Since traded
    RA Dickey 5.88 K/9 Twins 6.83 K/9 Since traded
    Kevin Slowey 6.67 K/9 Twins 7.20 K/9 Marlins
    Matt Guerrier 5.91 K/9 Twins 6.53 K/9 Dodgers
    Matt Garza 7.11 K/9 Twins 7.68 K/9 Since traded

    Vance Worley 4.62 K/9 Twins 7.71 K/9 Phillies
    Kevin Correia 5.04 K/9 Twins 6.04 K/9 before Twins
    Mike Pelfrey 4.90 K/9 Twins 5.08 K/9 before Twins


    Last edited by launchingthrees; 07-24-2013 at 11:16 AM.

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