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Thread: Zimmerman trial

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    I'm a bit surprised this didn't get dredged back up. Prosecutors asked this week to allow the jury to reduce the charges to manslaughter... 3rd degree murder with child abuse was kind of dumb.

    Not quite sure what the legal precedent is for that type of thing, I would have thought that manslaughter should have been on the table the whole time. I don't think Zimmerman had any plans to murder Martin... I'm not sure what Zimmerman planned truthfully. But to say that Zimmerman's negligence resulted in the death of Martin is hardly a stretch.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I doubt most confident prosecution teams do that at that late stage. The lawyers for the Martin team also backed some of their rhetoric down from wanting to see this murder "punished" to wanting to see "justice".

    i was amazed to see people publicly suggesting the theory Psuedo did earlier that this was some grand mastermind scheme. It really shocks me anyone could buy into that nonsense.

    Too many variables the prosecution didnt prove or even attempt to explain, my guess is manslaughter.

  3. #23
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Second degree murder is strange, honestly, in its distinction from manslaughter. Basically, for this trial, state, whatever, the distinction is that second degree murderer has malice and ill-will toward the victim, manslaughter does not. While I do think there is evidence to support the second degree murder charge, I'm not sure how convincing the prosecutions case was.

    And seriously, I didn't suggest it was a mastermind scheme, I just see Zimmerman lying his way out of shooting someone in a non-life-threatening scuffle. The question is did Zimmerman have a reasonable, justifiable belief that his life was in danger (I don't believe that he did).

    The final rebuttal from the prosecution lays out pretty my take pretty convincingly.

  4. #24
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Not guilty. Oi.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 07-13-2013 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #25
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    I bet the civil suit will turn out very different results. It's really a strange kind of justice that will take place here, with the books, appearances etc. the Zimmerman clan will make some money, and I bet the Martin clan gets their take. So modernly tragic.

  6. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    And seriously, I didn't suggest it was a mastermind scheme, I just see Zimmerman lying his way out of shooting someone in a non-life-threatening scuffle. The question is did Zimmerman have a reasonable, justifiable belief that his life was in danger (I don't believe that he did).

    The final rebuttal from the prosecution lays out pretty my take pretty convincingly.
    I think the prosecution highlighted precisely the problem in their case. They highlighted the fear or unease Trayvon likely felt that night. The problem is, in the face of fear we sometimes opt to fight/confront. When you couple that with the prosecution admitting Trayvon was on top when he was shot - it builds a strong reasonable doubt. Zimmerman may well have lied, but there was never any solid evidence that he had. Only inconsistencies the investigators and other criminal justice experts testified was normal in investigations.

    The defense said it right - don't fill in the gaps. The burden of proof was on the prosecution and there was far, far too many holes to build a murder case. Now for manslaughter they had a helluva case and if they had focused on that element - they'd have gotten a guilty verdict.

    Now, unfortunately, the jury members are basically being called out on the basis of race. As if their race made them incapable of deciding this case fairly. I have a huge problem with that subtle allegation.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 07-13-2013 at 09:27 PM.

  7. #27
    prosecution failed to mention gerald zimmerman's career .204 avg.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Not sure what to say. Prosecutor charged him with murder as opposed to manslaughter. I'd have thought manslaughter would have been a pretty easy conviction given that Zimmerman went against what he knew and was told to do...
    The exact quote was "you don't have to do that" also although it is unclear Zimmerman claims he did not follow him. This is a pretty simple case that blew up on twitter and then in the media mostly on really bad information and in the case of NBC doctoring the 911 tape pathetic reporting. Zimmerman didn't get arrested that night for a reason. You couldn't get a conviction with an all black jury. A year and a half of Zimmerman's life has been wasted behind bars, there's going to be hell to pay for a lot of people involved in this case.

    Moral of the story if you get in an altercation GUNS ARE ALLOWED so don't get in an altercation you don't need.

  9. #29
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecgrimes View Post
    Moral of the story if you get in an altercation GUNS ARE ALLOWED so don't get in an altercation you don't need.
    No, the moral of the story is whether we should allow average schmucks to carry around guns in public for no particular reason. Far too often, they lead to accidental shootings or incredibly nebulous shootings such as this.

    And I'm generally pro-gun. Letting poorly trained people with no law enforcement or security experience carry around firearms because they feel afraid is not going to lead to desirable outcomes.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    No, the moral of the story is whether we should allow average schmucks to carry around guns in public for no particular reason. Far too often, they lead to accidental shootings or incredibly nebulous shootings such as this.
    Thats just silly. More people are killed by tripping on the sidewalk. I would never carry a gun but the idea that criminals can know with nearly 100% confidence I am no threat to them is pretty scary. Zimmerman defended himself and in doing so it was a tragic result. Most people killed by guns do something pretty stupid leading up to it. Oh well.

  11. #31
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecgrimes View Post
    Thats just silly. More people are killed by tripping on the sidewalk. I would never carry a gun but the idea that criminals can know with nearly 100% confidence I am no threat to them is pretty scary. Zimmerman defended himself and in doing so it was a tragic result. Most people killed by guns do something pretty stupid leading up to it. Oh well.
    More people die from tripping on a sidewalk than accidental and misguided shootings?

    You're joking, right?

    Also, it is FAR from conclusive that Zimmerman was defending himself. Failure to convict does not equal exoneration.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecgrimes View Post
    Thats just silly. More people are killed by tripping on the sidewalk. I would never carry a gun but the idea that criminals can know with nearly 100% confidence I am no threat to them is pretty scary. Zimmerman defended himself and in doing so it was a tragic result. Most people killed by guns do something pretty stupid leading up to it. Oh well.
    Brock may think you are kidding, I doubt it. 32 thousand gun deaths in 2011. Yeah right, 16000 people wre doing somethig pretty stupid. Lastyear thev4000 pedistrians were probably doing something stupid in your book when they were hit.

  13. #33
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecgrimes View Post
    Most people killed by guns do something pretty stupid leading up to it. Oh well.
    That's pretty disgusting. There is no "oh well" to this - we have an innocent with their life lost. At night and being followed for an unknown reason are really strong reasons for someone's flight/fight instinct to kick in. The poor kid was probably scared out of his mind - or at least nervous. What he did wasn't stupid, it was perfectly reasonable under these conditions. Hell, it's precisely why Zimmerman was told to not pursuit.

    To the larger case - I'm more and more disturbed by this prosecution. Their opening statements claimed Zimmerman was on top and it was Martin screaming - by the end they had acknowledged Martin was on top and that he had a right to defend himself. How does that happen?

    I chewed on the interviews/press conferences and there is just something I don't like about Angela Corey. A quick check of her background shows that she has been involved in some really extreme cases of overcharging - charging a 12 year old as an adult, putting a 77 year old man who fired warning shots into the ground to scare away people threatening to assault him for 20 years (a charge a Florida judge called a crime in and of itself), and the case of a black woman who fired a gun into a ceiling to scare away her abusive husband.

    All under her watch. Combine that with a flimsy affadavit, repeated failures to disclose discovery, firing one of her employees for testifying in court that these things happened, and a flimsy case....and I see the work of a politician. This seems like it was all a publicity stunt on her part to continue to boost her name recognition. I know this is conspiracy theory-ish, but read up on this woman's past. I'm no longer as shocked as I was before about how this case came to end up like this.

    Afterall, how can anyone in their right mind think you can get a murder conviction when your case looks like the model the underpants gnomes use:

    1. First, he racially profiled
    2. Then.......
    3. Next....murder!

    Just stupid. No justice for a slain kid because someone wanted to win political points rather than pursue a charge they might have actually succeeded at.

  14. #34
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Interesting, Levi. I didn't know she was behind the ridiculous overcharging of the woman who fired rounds into her ceiling to deter her husband from beating the crap out of her.

    This woman is starting to sound like a menace. I wish more judges had the moxie to publicly berate these kinds of lawyers and shame them out of the system (or, at the very least, raise public awareness of them). They absolutely have the right to do it and generally, face no repercussion for doing so.

    After dating a lawyer for several years, I'm starting to realize the awesome power held by judges. It's both frightening and reassuring, depending on the judge.

  15. #35
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Apparently Derschowitz has been calling for her to be disbarred. They have quite the feud going.

    In the 77 year olds case a judge did wield some executive power to erase the "crime" that was the sentence and she just pressed on for a judge that caved.

    I Really think her role in this is getting underplayed in the rush to not look at the details of this awful, corrupt prosecution. and let me be clear....seeking a charge was needed, doing so unethically only made this injustice a guarantee.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    No, the moral of the story is whether we should allow average schmucks to carry around guns in public for no particular reason.

    And I'm generally pro-gun. Letting poorly trained people with no law enforcement or security experience carry around firearms because they feel afraid is not going to lead to desirable outcomes.
    Actually Brock the "Average Schmuck" has more firearm experience then the trained law enforcement or security personnel. Many law enforcement personnel only ever shoot their weapons when the have to re-qualify, whereas the average schmuck who decides to carry a firearm practice on a regular basis.

  17. #37
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    Actually Brock the "Average Schmuck" has more firearm experience then the trained law enforcement or security personnel. Many law enforcement personnel only ever shoot their weapons when the have to re-qualify, whereas the average schmuck who decides to carry a firearm practice on a regular basis.
    I worked in a gun shop for nearly two years. In the case of the police departments I dealt with on a regular basis, they were required to shoot their firearms on a fairly regular basis and there was a constant flow of police officers through our range.

    On top of that, the average schmuck has no training in how to handle a crisis situation and has very little idea of when they are within the bounds of the law to shoot at someone else. There is a reason why a good percentage of police officers dislike conceal and/or carry laws. It makes their job more difficult when they have to worry about "Weekend Dirty Harrys" wandering the streets without a lick of training or know-how in dealing with a crisis situation.

    Police officers are not infallible but when a cop approaches you, at least you're confident that at some point, he/she had training in crisis management and had to pass a somewhat rigorous shooting proficiency test. If a Weekend Dirty Harry approaches you with a gun, you have no such confidence in that being the case. After working in that gun shop for a couple of years, I saw all types come through the door and some of them were downright frightening. Some of the conceal/carry folks were ex-military. I have no problems with those people carrying firearms (most of the time). It was the other folks who scared the hell out of me. The people who wanted a conceal/carry permit because they were scared of something... in some cases, everything. Or maybe they had a chip on their shoulder and were itching for a fight. Those were the folks that can cause real damage and get people hurt. Those are the people who shouldn't be carrying guns in public and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that a person have a reason for carrying a gun before letting them walk around with one on their hip.

    I'm not against carry laws. All I want to see is a bit of screening into "why do you feel it necessary to walk around with a gun all day?"

  18. #38
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I don't expect the right-wing to wake up to their stupidity in this case (racial injustice just doesn't seem to be a concept they can understand) but I am heartened that some are waking up to the real problem here.

    Some left-leaning sites actually seem to be digging into more than the surface finally. The more I read about it today the more I think a prosecutor with an interest in making a name for herself duped millions of people into thinking this case was more than it really was. (Some were even predicting that before the trial even started based on the affidavit) That becomes really aggravating when you consider all the people that damages.

  19. #39
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I wasn't surprised by the verdict, but have been surprised by some reactions to it. How anyone honestly could believe that Zimmerman didn't cause this killing and thus deserves some kind of punishment is completely beyond me. If Trayvon Martin were white, Zimmerman would be in prison RIGHT NOW. If you don't believe that, you need to re-evaluate how you think about things in America.

  20. #40
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I worked in a gun shop for nearly two years. In the case of the police departments I dealt with on a regular basis, they were required to shoot their firearms on a fairly regular basis and there was a constant flow of police officers through our range.

    On top of that, the average schmuck has no training in how to handle a crisis situation and has very little idea of when they are within the bounds of the law to shoot at someone else. There is a reason why a good percentage of police officers dislike conceal and/or carry laws. It makes their job more difficult when they have to worry about "Weekend Dirty Harrys" wandering the streets without a lick of training or know-how in dealing with a crisis situation.

    Police officers are not infallible but when a cop approaches you, at least you're confident that at some point, he/she had training in crisis management and had to pass a somewhat rigorous shooting proficiency test. If a Weekend Dirty Harry approaches you with a gun, you have no such confidence in that being the case. After working in that gun shop for a couple of years, I saw all types come through the door and some of them were downright frightening. Some of the conceal/carry folks were ex-military. I have no problems with those people carrying firearms (most of the time). It was the other folks who scared the hell out of me. The people who wanted a conceal/carry permit because they were scared of something... in some cases, everything. Or maybe they had a chip on their shoulder and were itching for a fight. Those were the folks that can cause real damage and get people hurt. Those are the people who shouldn't be carrying guns in public and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that a person have a reason for carrying a gun before letting them walk around with one on their hip.

    I'm not against carry laws. All I want to see is a bit of screening into "why do you feel it necessary to walk around with a gun all day?"
    I was with you up until your conclusion. There's a constitutional issue here, as the right to bare arms should not be infringed. I do think there's something to be said that the respect for firearms was common place back in the 1700s due to the need to do things like hunt, but it isn't as though people didn't die back then from this type of thing either.

    I have a permit, though I don't own a concealable gun yet as the one I have doesn't conceal well, and I want to carry for no other reason than that you never know when you might be stuck in a theater with some idiot shooting at anyone. It may help, it may not, but I'd rather not trust my life (or my family's life) to fate or wait 5 minutes for police when I only have about 10 seconds to do something. That's a pretty valid reason that anyone can use.

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