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Thread: At what point?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Of 10,000 Beasts View Post
    The Twins have a lack of talent. That isn't Gardy's fault. Half of our team belongs in Rochester. If we have success this season, it will be because of team chemistry and great coaching, which I think Gardy can provide.

    Agree that the 2011 and 2012 Twins are not talented, but what about the 2006 Twins team, which had a Cy Young Winner, a batting title and an MVP, but failed to win a playoff game? Gardenhire does NOT get the most from his players. Try somebody else.

  2. #42
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    Pluto

    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    I don't trust that the ownership has any clue as to how to go about doing the right thing. I basically agree with you, I just don't think it will help. And you should have written this Friday morning, because declaring the sky is falling after three losses is both easy and non-credible. Again, not that I disagree with you.
    Did express these sentiments before Friday. Hollering about jettisoning him to Pluto last year on some other blog. And, the year before that. Ownership is just alienating the fan base by keeping him on.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsFanLV View Post
    Agree that the 2011 and 2012 Twins are not talented, but what about the 2006 Twins team, which had a Cy Young Winner, a batting title and an MVP, but failed to win a playoff game? Gardenhire does NOT get the most from his players. Try somebody else.
    Using a 3 game sample isn't particularly fair. Santana pitched well in game 1, Morneau was good all series, Mauer struggled. I think it's more indicative of the manager's skill that he took a team that had lost Liriano and was 10.5 back on Aug 7 and won the central on the last day of the season.

    I think if you want to make claims like "he does NOT get the most from his players" you should be able to point out players that have left the Twins and gotten better (and you should also, if that's how you're judging this, note the players that have come here and become better players). And, of course, you'd have to compare that with how a normal manager does in that, as well.

  4. #44
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    Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.

  5. #45
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    Are these the same analysts that picked them to win the division last year?

  6. #46


    We're only three games in, fellas. Cheer up. Send positive energy to the Twin's bats.
    Last edited by luckylager; 04-09-2012 at 08:06 AM.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Triple-A Gernzy's Avatar
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    The Twins are normally pretty generous when it comes to their managers. TK stayed thoughout the entire 90's cellar run. I don't see this year as make or break for Gardy. If this continues though, then who knows.
    I bent my wookie...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post
    Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.
    They could not have kept Kubel, Cuddyer and Nathan, payroll had to come down...

  9. #49
    I truly hope that is the case. We need new blood and brains in this club. We need people that take risks and know how to build a winner.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb18 View Post
    Gunnarthor--The point is: The Twins are not a small market team. They are a team that doesn't have to go through the rebuilding mode the way they did in the past. They are in a financial position to acquire quality free agents. Also, they could have kept Kubel, Cuddyer, and Nathan-signed a few pitchers and then wait until the young guys are ready. I don't know if you listen to baseball on XM with Kevin Kennedy, Casey Stern, Jim Douquette(sp) plus other baseball analyists? But, most independent experts predict another season like last year. In other words, the rebuilding could be done in another way without a complete dismantling of the team. The results will show at the gate by the middle of the season.
    I agree we aren't a small market team anymore and I think the team was set up this year so that they could add salary if Morneau/Mauer were both healthy. But I don't think they were in a position to pay 15/yr or more for the quality free agents - Wilson, Pujols, Yu, Fielder, etc. They added a Cuddy-like hitter in Willingham (I think a slightly inferior one but others think superior). I don't think there was much they could do in free agency to help this team much. But I do agree with any general sentiment that the Pohlad's could have let us have a higher payroll. I think that's why Smith was fired, he wanted a payroll around 113 again. But that's just my assumption.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaDave View Post
    They could not have kept Kubel, Cuddyer and Nathan, payroll had to come down...
    Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.

  12. #52
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    I am generally a Gardy fan and I don't think most of this would change much, if at all, with a new manager. That said, at some point you almost HAVE to try something different, no?

    I think the blame for the Twins current situation falls largely on Bill Smith, partly on ownership, and partly on bad luck. Smith was beyond horrible as a GM, draining talent from this organization through one horrible decision after another. Ownership seems to me to value guaranteed yearly profits above all else. And in truth, they've been unlucky with health for a couple years now.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    48 hours ago I would have thought that Gardy was safe for as long as he wanted. But now I'm wondering. It's a nebulous answer, but it depends how the team looks as much as the results. If they look ugly, you never know. Things could go south much faster than I would have thought.
    If this on-pace for a 100-loss season, as hard as it is to believe, I'd have to agree with John. And the irony of it is that there's nothing Gardy can really do, is there? Gardy has plenty of faults, and I'm sure we'll point them out real-time all year. But this roster is severely deficient in many ways, especially pitching, and we all knew it coming into the year. Gardy's in a situation where there are guys he's going to have to keep penciling in and just hope for the best. Mauer's a guy like that, obviously, but even when Mauer is "bad", he usually can perform at a better than average level for a catcher. Pavano scares the hell out of me, and I shudder to think of what value we could have gotten for Liriano after 2010, because that guy is never going be consistent enough to be a front-line starter.

    The odds are certainly against a mid-season firing, but this will be one ugly summer if we're well below .500 by mid-August again. It could happen. The Twins definitely need a culture change, but a lot of the nitpicky things I don't like about Gardenhire and the core of this team aren't significant enough to explain performance THIS bad.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.
    While you are right from a business standpoint that payroll could have been increased, the problem isn't that we "only" have $100 million to work with...it's the composition of the roster. That Mauer and Morneau's struggles have eaten up a big chunk of that is well documented. But the real problem is the farm system, or lack thereof. Sano, Arcia, and a few others give hope for the future, but literally nothing of significant long-term value has come up since Liriano. And when team after team succeeds in the playoffs with a budgets very close to what the Twins now have, it's often because their overall salary budget is being deflated by young players who haven't gotten paid yet.

    You CAN succeed with Mauer and Morneau making all that money, even if Mauer and Morneau are missing time with injury, but it would need to be supplemented with cheap young talent performing at a Joey Votto or Matt Cain level BEFORE those guys have put in enough time to warrant a long-term deal.

    Simply put, the Twins felt that they had a superior philosophy and enough core players that they could draft "safe" year after year, and they were wrong. Now, our entire rotation has virtually zero power arms, and the only guys that move through the ranks are average prospects like Valencia, or guys with extremely limited ceilings, such as Revere. (Note: Span was nearly an exception to this rule, but he was actually drafted way back in '02 and withheld until he was "over-ripe"...plus his performance/injury problems the past few years question whether he will actually be an above-average player going forward)

    My point is, I don't think that another 10 - 15 million on top of what we already have makes this a SIGNIFICANTLY better team if that money is just spent through free agency. Yes, a Puljos or Fielder signing would have made an impact, but that was never going to happen for a number of reasons, and those guys cost $20 million + per year. They could have pursued a Cliff Lee or C.J. Wilson (and yes, I really wish we had something resembling an "ace"), but what about the other four starts? And the anemic defense and hitting? I think management saw the writing on the wall, knew that they couldn't "spend their way to .500" this season, and recognized that luck and good health with several key players were going to make a bigger difference this year than anyone they could have reasonably tried to acquire.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Tiffee View Post
    Does Gardenhire go on the proverbial hot seat?
    When those above him are being held accountable and need a scapegoat. It is the way of the world.

  16. #56
    people are so mad today.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    Why did Payoll have to come down? There was no logical reason to reduce payroll. Revenue was up to 230 million last year and we still haven't heard what they were adding from the new local TV contract. Team has historically spent 50+% of revenue on payroll. This year they decide to spend significantly less, and you think this had to be? Seems to me the owners were setting the team up to fail.
    Two major differences this year. One, they no longer receive revenue sharing from the rest of the league. I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe it was in the $10-$15mm range. Two, they will be paying about $6mm more to sign draft picks. That is a reduction of net revenue greater than the $15mm reduction in opening day payrolls.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by StormJH1 View Post
    My point is, I don't think that another 10 - 15 million on top of what we already have makes this a SIGNIFICANTLY better team if that money is just spent through free agency. Yes, a Puljos or Fielder signing would have made an impact, but that was never going to happen for a number of reasons, and those guys cost $20 million + per year. They could have pursued a Cliff Lee or C.J. Wilson (and yes, I really wish we had something resembling an "ace"), but what about the other four starts? And the anemic defense and hitting? I think management saw the writing on the wall, knew that they couldn't "spend their way to .500" this season, and recognized that luck and good health with several key players were going to make a bigger difference this year than anyone they could have reasonably tried to acquire.
    I agree with the core of what you're saying, but I think if you look at the moves made last off season, if you have another 15 million to spend you can significantly improve the team. Don't forget the team spend another 10.75 million on Marquis, Carroll and Capps, plus another 1-2 million for the bums in our pen, meaning you would have had about 27 million to work with in the offseason. Instead of signing Marquis for 3 Million, you sign E.Jackson for 11 (+8), instead of Carroll for 3 Million, you sign Scutaro for 6 (+11), I'd go with Cordero over Capps and save 250k, that would leave me 5-6 (the guys they brought in like Burton, Gray, etc. cost something too) million to spend on the bullpen, for that I could have signed Coffey, Saito, Qualls and Rodney. Not saying all these guys would have signed here, or that you would have even wanted all of them, but the point is, we would have a legitimate SP, a decent offensive option at short and a bullpen that we could have some confidence in. The team would certainly be in a better position to compete for the AL central. Don't forget Fielder wasn't signed until late in the offseason, so if you're running the Twins, you don't see the Tigers as being that much better in your division.

    It was a bad, short-sighted move to cut payroll this year.

  19. #59
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    This years Bullpen tells the story. The Twins were not willing to spend even a million dollars too upgrade the leagues worst Bullpen. Winning does take a back Seat to the Pohlad's profit.

  20. #60
    I agree that internally the team's expectations are realistic and that the real goal is to prepare for the future, while doing their best to compete and put a good product on the field. If the team had spent $110 million again with the expectation that they could make a run at the Tigers, it might be a different story - but that is clearly not the case. The bigger question is whether Gardy wants to be the manager of a team that is rebuilding. If it is clear that the team is out of contention by July and the decision is made to sell off veterans and go with a youth movement, then Gardy will need to ask himself whether that is something he wants to be a part of.

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