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Thread: Article: Is There A Market For Morneau?

  1. #81
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I personally have no problem with this. I think the issue will be a lack of supply of worthwhile free agents. Twins will want a corner bat and a starting pitcher. The former will be relatively cheap and the latter will not even be at a Sanchez level - those two signings won't offset the salary coming off the books.
    If you're waiting for the golden age of free agency when all-stars fall like leaves to the ground.....why don't you just admit that you never foresee the Twins signing an impact player? You have told us in the past that last season's class was awful, when it was, at worst, slightly below average. This year looks to be average, and that's without players that will likely sign before the end of the season ala Hamels/Cain.

    It's just not going to happen, it's a disingenuous point.

    Hitting really can't get worse.
    That depends on who is in the lineup. We came into this season lauding the offense as the team's champion and it has been every bit as below average as many of us pointed out for the very reasons it was pointed out. Right now, we know we have Parmalee, Arcia, Doumit, Mauer, Hicks, Dozier, Florimon, Plouffe coming back next year. We might see marginally better production, but I'm hardly confident of that until I see a few of these guys become more consistent.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    If you're waiting for the golden age of free agency when all-stars fall like leaves to the ground.....why don't you just admit that you never foresee the Twins signing an impact player? You have told us in the past that last season's class was awful, when it was, at worst, slightly below average. This year looks to be average, and that's without players that will likely sign before the end of the season ala Hamels/Cain.
    I have no idea what the beginning of this is referring to, but taking an actual look at potential free agents shows that there are no pitchers the caliber of Greinke or Sanchez (though that depends on how you feel about Nolasco, Garza, AJ Burnett, Josh Johnson, Lincecum), but there does seem to be more depth in the next tier compared to this past offseason. I expect the Twins to add a pitcher in this area. For some reason I keep thinking Phil Hughes.

    Outside of Cano, I don't see any other elite free agents. There are some good OFs, but considering the makeup of the Twins organization I don't think it would be especially wise to overpay for one of them.

    There are a few corner bats that would be worthwhile to add. Assuming they trade Willingham I could see the Twins making a play for one of them. Perhaps another IF if they don't have confidence in the current group.

    I guess I don't know what you expect. I think if the Twins add a pitcher and a corner bat that would be a successful use of free agency next offseason.
    Papers...business papers.

  3. #83
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    For reference, here is a link to free agents for next year:

    Potential Free Agents for 2014 | Cot's Baseball Contracts

    If you disagree with my take, I would be interested in what other free agents people would like the Twins to sign.

    (Of course this is a little premature, as Levi mentioned there are still possible extensions and I am making some assumptions on Twins trades).
    Papers...business papers.

  4. #84
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I guess I don't know what you expect. I think if the Twins add a pitcher and a corner bat that would be a successful use of free agency next offseason.
    It's just baffling trying to make sense of your arguments over time on this. You railed against Sanchez and Grienke because there were better options on the horizon (including this upcoming offseason) and now you think the next group is pretty bad. It might be, but that's the problem with waiting for the golden moment to strike in FA.

    Good teams look a year or two ahead and try to anticipate. I too want them to add two FAs that would rank in the top 20-25 of the crop this coming year. Ideally at least one of them a SP. But they should've done that last offseason too. In part because putting your eggs in future baskets can wind up with a FA class you don't like.

    Here's something for you to chew on: Between now and the first time we have to cut a 2-3M arb. check to Arcia, we might look back and see that Anibal Sanchez/Zach Grienke were the best pair of options that hit the market. And we waited, because....well...hell if I know why. There's no good reason IMO.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    It's just baffling trying to make sense of your arguments over time on this. You railed against Sanchez and Grienke because there were better options on the horizon (including this upcoming offseason) and now you think the next group is pretty bad. It might be, but that's the problem with waiting for the golden moment to strike in FA.

    Good teams look a year or two ahead and try to anticipate. I too want them to add two FAs that would rank in the top 20-25 of the crop this coming year. Ideally at least one of them a SP. But they should've done that last offseason too. In part because putting your eggs in future baskets can wind up with a FA class you don't like.

    Here's something for you to chew on: Between now and the first time we have to cut a 2-3M arb. check to Arcia, we might look back and see that Anibal Sanchez/Zach Grienke were the best pair of options that hit the market. And we waited, because....well...hell if I know why. There's no good reason IMO.
    Yes, I understand and appreciate your points on this, I wish you would at least consider a few of mine.

    Here they are in no particular order in question form:
    1. Do you actually like these contracts? Do you think the Twins should have gone higher and more years? Do you think the Twins would actually be able to outbid the Dodgers? Or the all-in Tigers? Does it give you some pause that teams with more financial resources, better chances for success this season, and needs in the starting rotation did not bid higher than these two teams? And you still want the Twins to beat the offers?

    2. Do you have concern that the these two specific pitchers may see a drop off in their performance over the next 2-3 years? That is, do you have concern they will start to drop off right at the time the Twins are completing their ascension? Would it concern you that having money in these pitchers would prevent the Twins from signing a different pitcher at that time?

    3. How confident are you that things will go right for the Twins over the next 3-4 years? Is there something to be said for being a little cautious after consecutive seasons losing more than 95 games? Might there be some benefit in waiting to see what emerges from the farm system (and players currently on the roster) before committing huge dollars to one pitcher?
    Papers...business papers.

  6. #86
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    Do you actually like these contracts?
    If you're waiting to sign a good SP in FA and you have to "like" the deal...again I ask...why even the pretense to defend the idea you want the team to do it? Rarely are large contracts something to "like". What I like is adding desperately needed talent.

    Do you think the Twins would actually be able to outbid the Dodgers? Or the all-in Tigers?
    Dollars and years. So our front office says. So yes, yes I do. If they wanted to.

    2. Do you have concern that the these two specific pitchers may see a drop off in their performance over the next 2-3 years?
    No more than any other starter that will hit the market. No more than they could suck in year 1 ala Zito or even Grienke this year. It's always a risk. If you don't want to play with risk, again I ask, why the pretense?

    Is there something to be said for being a little cautious after consecutive seasons losing more than 95 games?
    Explain how not adding talent solves your problem of not having enough talent to win? That argument is pretty ridiculous. "Let's not add talent until we're sure we have talent". That's a good way to get into a nice, long streak of ineptitude. Plan for the best, adjust for the worst.

  7. #87
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    I think there's a middle ground here that tends to get lost if we're not talking about specifics. I was disappointed that the Twins didnt't sign FA pitchers, but I also wasn't lobbying for Greinke/Sanchez. I seem to remember lobbying for Dempster and Ervin Santana, and probably a few others that didn't work out as well.

    I think you can find some players which balance the risk or even use it as an opportunity to create an asset - like Willingham and his contract - that can provide a benefit to the season AND something other teams could value.

    But I'll also say - I'll be surprised if the Twins do that. It's not Ryan's MO. I wish they did more of that.

  8. #88
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    It's not Ryan's MO. I wish they did more of that.
    That's exactly my point. I am worried we are very ineffectively using one of only three ways to obtain talent. And Ryan seems fundamentally committed to it. (Not Ryan bashing, he does many things I love, but this is a major flaw)

  9. #89
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    What is not to like about the big contracts last year?

    they have 2 players that will be in arbitration within 3 years, or 4 years, on their roster. They have 2 players after this year that make even $5MM per year. They get $25MM in new money next year.

    The could have signed Grienke, and still had their payroll be lower next year than it is this year. They lose Blackburn, Pelfrey, Morneau, and get $25MM in new money....

    Add 1 legit player a year, for a couple of years while you have no players making money, that's how the plan should work. That's the whole point of having 20+ guys making the minimum or so, you can afford to sign several really expensive guys. Not taking advantage of that payroll advantage is the mistake here, imo.
    Lighten up Francis....

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