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Thread: In Defense of Defense

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spideyo View Post
    Still don't understand the love affair with Joe Benson. Is it the hair?
    Still don't understand the love affair with Ben Revere. Is it the smile?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Still . . . who cares about Doumit's non-defense? This is only an issue because Josh Willingham cannot make a simple move from LF to RF. It's astounding that a manager and general manager would allow that.
    Still waiting for any evidence of anybody saying that Willingham was unwilling or unable to move.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    Perhaps I was spoiled by the soul patrol, but an outfield with enough range to cut off the ball in the gaps and to catch up to fly balls in foul territory helps turn non-serviceable pitchers into serviceable pitchers. (How else do you explain Carlos Silva?) The Twins dilema is they have propensity of players best suited for DH at-bats that now won't be happening because of Morneau's delicate cranium. I don't think you have to play the hand you're dealt. Isn't this where you try to address your needs by making a trade? I watched the Diamondbacks-Giants game last night and Arizona has put a pretty decent outfielder on the bench (Gerardo Parra) to give Jason Kubel at-bats. Parra would be a great addition. He's an elite defender and a decent-enough hitter to merit a spot in the lineup. Parra wouldn't block Benson's or Hicks' advancement because Willingham is not a long-term solution. (And Willingham can always DH once Justin recovers, can't he?) I'd be on the phone finding out what Arizona wants in trade.

  4. #24
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    Historically, how often do trade occur in April and May? I certainly don't remember many in April. To me, if a team were going to trade to address a perceived need, it would've been during ST. I think most clubs are going to give their current roster 50 games or so to see where they are at before considering trades, unless the injury bug hits. Also, per Arizona, if they are giving at bats to Kubel over a more defensive outfielder then they are coming at it from the same philosophy as our Twins, so to speak.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Double-A Neinstein's Avatar
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    I was very happy with Carroll's defensive play in game 1. Hope to see many more nice plays throughout the year.
    "You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity. No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." ​Albert Einstein

  6. #26
    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    In Spring Training they thought Morneau would play first, Doumit would DH, Willingham would play RF, and some combination of Revere and Plouffe would play left. Once they decided Morneau would be the primary DH and Willingham would play left, however, RF became more of a question because of their reluctance to put Revere out there. By the way, there's no MLB rule against making trades in April or May. (I looked it up.) Not doing it because, well, it's just not done, is an argument without any actual justification. Same as saying that because the Diamondbacks are valuing Kubel's offense over Parra's glove, that's the way it should be. Arizona already has two other pretty good defenders in ther outfield in Upton and Young so can more afford to make room for a bat. They also have a pitching staff in Kennedy, Hudson, and Collmenter that misses a lot more bats than the Twins do.

  7. #27
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive View Post
    Revere's hitting ability has not translated into the majors yet. He has never earned a starting job.

    Plouffe is a better hitter than you're giving him credit for. He played 81 games last season and hit 8 HR... simple math puts a fair projection for Plouffe at 15-16 on a full season.
    If you double Plouffes home run production using simple math. Don't conveniently forget to double his strikeout total. That would be 71 k's to 135 to 145 and that .238 average looms large. Has Revere earned a job with Angels... I'd say no but he was a spark plug last year and he earned it with the Twins.

  8. #28
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I don't believe corner OF defense is worth downgrading offensively. Teams have stuck less-than-great defensive outfielders in the corners for a century and a half, and done just fine. Boston won 2 WS with Manny Ramirez in LF. The number of fly balls that a Ben Revere would catch vs a Ryan Doumit isn't very significant over the course of a season. Yesterday the sun probably had as much to do with him not catching that ball as range did, and there's no guarantee Revere (or any outfielder) catches that ball either. In the specific case of Revere, his arm would cost at least a portion of the runs his range might save anyway.

    I would also remind everyone the Twins defense saved Pavano a couple baserunners, and at least one run yesterday. Willingham saved a run with a throw from LF that Revere probably doesn't make, and Carroll's over the shoulder catch on a popup was a legitimately major league play. Parmalee made a nice play on a ground ball up the line. So let's stop pretending that defense cost the Twins a game yesterday.

    I would also remind those clamoring for Ben Revere, that if we're going to make sweeping generalizations based off one game samples, that every run scored in yesterday's game involved an XBH. I, for one, do not want to see Ben Revere's bat in the lineup on an every day basis. One more weak spot, IMO.

  9. #29
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    Funny Mr.Stohs, using that logic, how could you have ever defended Drew Butera as a ML catcher and not seem to be bothered by his complete lack of any sort of offensive ability?

  10. #30
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I don't believe corner OF defense is worth downgrading offensively. Teams have stuck less-than-great defensive outfielders in the corners for a century and a half, and done just fine. Boston won 2 WS with Manny Ramirez in LF. The number of fly balls that a Ben Revere would catch vs a Ryan Doumit isn't very significant over the course of a season. Yesterday the sun probably had as much to do with him not catching that ball as range did, and there's no guarantee Revere (or any outfielder) catches that ball either. In the specific case of Revere, his arm would cost at least a portion of the runs his range might save anyway.

    I would also remind everyone the Twins defense saved Pavano a couple baserunners, and at least one run yesterday. Willingham saved a run with a throw from LF that Revere probably doesn't make, and Carroll's over the shoulder catch on a popup was a legitimately major league play. Parmalee made a nice play on a ground ball up the line. So let's stop pretending that defense cost the Twins a game yesterday.

    I would also remind those clamoring for Ben Revere, that if we're going to make sweeping generalizations based off one game samples, that every run scored in yesterday's game involved an XBH. I, for one, do not want to see Ben Revere's bat in the lineup on an every day basis. One more weak spot, IMO.
    A couple of things

    #1 I don't care if Doumit dropped that ball in RF. It proves nothing and isn't related to my personal point. On the subject of Doumits defense. He's a career .271 who routinely hits double figures in dingers and his primary position is catcher. If he could play defense at all. Those numbers are worth money at the C position. He can't play defense and that is why he has failed to hold a starting job with the Pirates who have been one of the worst teams in baseball. It's not like Doumit had to beat out Johnny Bench for a job. As an OF. He's a career .271 hitter who can maybe hit 20 dingers if he stays healthy. Guess what if Doumit and Plouffe are the RF tandem. You have already sacrificed offense. So... You better be able to go get it in the field.

    #2. I hope you are not implying that we have a 2004 version of Manny Ramirez in this current Twins lineup. If we have someone who hits like that. Yeah go ahead and let the ball scoot through the gaps for extra bases on occasion. I don't see any of the current Twins OF candidates hitting .300 plus with 40 home runs. We don't have that... of course that could just be my opinion. Maybe Plouffe will go nuts.

    #3. Using your World Series point. Need I remind you that the hated White Sox won the 2005 World Series with Scott Podzednik and beat the Astros with Willy Taveres.

    #4 maybe it's once a week or twice a week or 5 times a week that OF defense comes into play. Please also consider that it's about 27 weeks in a baseball season. Clamoring for the guy who will hit 14 homers is a round tripper every two weeks.

    #5 when in doubt... Take the guy with world class speed and career .300 average in the minors. The twins have tons of players capable of 15 homers with regular at bats. Unfortunely the majority of them are capable of hitting south of .250.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    A couple of things

    #1 I don't care if Doumit dropped that ball in RF. It proves nothing and isn't related to my personal point. On the subject of Doumits defense. He's a career .271 who routinely hits double figures in dingers and his primary position is catcher. If he could play defense at all. Those numbers are worth money at the C position. He can't play defense and that is why he has failed to hold a starting job with the Pirates who have been one of the worst teams in baseball. It's not like Doumit had to beat out Johnny Bench for a job. As an OF. He's a career .271 hitter who can maybe hit 20 dingers if he stays healthy. Guess what if Doumit and Plouffe are the RF tandem. You have already sacrificed offense. So... You better be able to go get it in the field.

    #2. I hope you are not implying that we have a 2004 version of Manny Ramirez in this current Twins lineup. If we have someone who hits like that. Yeah go ahead and let the ball scoot through the gaps for extra bases on occasion. I don't see any of the current Twins OF candidates hitting .300 plus with 40 home runs. We don't have that... of course that could just be my opinion. Maybe Plouffe will go nuts.

    #3. Using your World Series point. Need I remind you that the hated White Sox won the 2005 World Series with Scott Podzednik and beat the Astros with Willy Taveres.

    #4 maybe it's once a week or twice a week or 5 times a week that OF defense comes into play. Please also consider that it's about 27 weeks in a baseball season. Clamoring for the guy who will hit 14 homers is a round tripper every two weeks.

    #5 when in doubt... Take the guy with world class speed and career .300 average in the minors. The twins have tons of players capable of 15 homers with regular at bats. Unfortunely the majority of them are capable of hitting south of .250.
    You're really overrating revere in this post. Revere hit an empty 300 and OPS'd barely above .600. That's tolerable from a middle infielder with elite defense... but not out of a corner outfielder.

  12. #32
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive View Post
    You're really overrating revere in this post. Revere hit an empty 300 and OPS'd barely above .600. That's tolerable from a middle infielder with elite defense... but not out of a corner outfielder.
    lol... Revere has hit 5 home runs in 5 or 6 years of professional ball. How high do you think his OPS should be in consideration of his skill sets.

    Sometimes it's not about the ability to clear the fences. Sometimes it simply about not making outs on offense and making outs on defense.

    Sometimes it's about running face first into the wall and robbing Vlad and showing casual players like Velencia and Delmon Young how it's done.

    Sometimes it's about beating a ball into the ground and forcing the SS to bobble or throw it away because he has to damn well hurry.

    Sometimes it's about the attention the pitcher has to pay to someone like that sitting on 1st base taking a lead and the fastball he has to deliver to the next better because he can't throw anything off speed.

    Please understand that I don't believe they should start working on the Ben Revere bust at Cooperstown. He is what he is. I just think that his play as a whole is getting under valued and I think he has earned a starting job and he'd have it if Mornaeu could play 1B and Revere in LF would help us win games.

    My point is also not so much about Revere as its about the grasping on to someone with 15 home run potential and ignoring the fact that 15 home run potential guys are everywhere and nothing special.

    If the best you can do is 15 home runs. A dinger every two weeks. Give me range speed and effort to mix in some of that 15 dinger power.

    This team as a whole does not have enough overall hitting or overall pitching to survive poor range, bad gloves or lack of effort.

    I'm not comfortable with Willingham and Doumit combining to handle two thirds of the spacious Target OF with a pitching staff that pitches to contact.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    This team as a whole does not have enough overall hitting or overall pitching to survive poor range, bad gloves or lack of effort.

    I'm not comfortable with Willingham and Doumit combining to handle two thirds of the spacious Target OF with a pitching staff that pitches to contact.
    Well said. I heard Gardy say this morning that he'll be reluctant to sub for Doumit defensively in-game in RF because then he loses his back-up catcher. Great strategy, huh?

  14. #34
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teflon View Post
    Well said. I heard Gardy say this morning that he'll be reluctant to sub for Doumit defensively in-game in RF because then he loses his back-up catcher. Great strategy, huh?
    Teflon... It drives me personally crazy. In the odd chance that Mauer goes down with an injury and Doumit has been taken out. It will be late in the game. Put the pads on Willingham for an inning and call up Towles for tomorrow.

    If it worries you so much. Start working with Plouffe on footwork behind the plate, calling pitches and have him spend some time in the film room and charting pitches. PREPARE FOR IT if it worries you.

    If Doumit or Mauer is DH'ing and the catcher gets hurt. Put the DH behind the plate and let the pitcher bat for the rest of the game. Let him swing or pinch hit for him when his spot in the lineup comes around and call up Towles for tomorrow.

    I'm not a Gardy hater but this overblown fear of running out of catchers is a hole in his game.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 04-08-2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: bad typing

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    lol... Revere has hit 5 home runs in 5 or 6 years of professional ball. How high do you think his OPS should be in consideration of his skill sets.

    Sometimes it's not about the ability to clear the fences. Sometimes it simply about not making outs on offense and making outs on defense.

    Sometimes it's about running face first into the wall and robbing Vlad and showing casual players like Velencia and Delmon Young how it's done.

    Sometimes it's about beating a ball into the ground and forcing the SS to bobble or throw it away because he has to damn well hurry.

    Sometimes it's about the attention the pitcher has to pay to someone like that sitting on 1st base taking a lead and the fastball he has to deliver to the next better because he can't throw anything off speed.

    Please understand that I don't believe they should start working on the Ben Revere bust at Cooperstown. He is what he is. I just think that his play as a whole is getting under valued and I think he has earned a starting job and he'd have it if Mornaeu could play 1B and Revere in LF would help us win games.

    My point is also not so much about Revere as its about the grasping on to someone with 15 home run potential and ignoring the fact that 15 home run potential guys are everywhere and nothing special.

    If the best you can do is 15 home runs. A dinger every two weeks. Give me range speed and effort to mix in some of that 15 dinger power.

    This team as a whole does not have enough overall hitting or overall pitching to survive poor range, bad gloves or lack of effort.

    I'm not comfortable with Willingham and Doumit combining to handle two thirds of the spacious Target OF with a pitching staff that pitches to contact.
    OPS is not only affected by HR's. It also takes into account extra base hits. A player with his speed should be hitting more doubles and triples, but he simply isn't. The vast majority of his game is infield singles, and that simply isn't sustainable. Ben Revere is a 4th outfielder at best, I'm glad that's the position he's been given this season.

  16. #36
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive View Post
    OPS is not only affected by HR's. It also takes into account extra base hits. A player with his speed should be hitting more doubles and triples, but he simply isn't. The vast majority of his game is infield singles, and that simply isn't sustainable. Ben Revere is a 4th outfielder at best, I'm glad that's the position he's been given this season.
    One gets the impression some posters here think batting average is not only the best, but the ONLY measure of a players offensive contributions.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    lol... Revere has hit 5 home runs in 5 or 6 years of professional ball. How high do you think his OPS should be in consideration of his skill sets.

    Sometimes it's not about the ability to clear the fences. Sometimes it simply about not making outs on offense and making outs on defense.

    Sometimes it's about running face first into the wall and robbing Vlad and showing casual players like Velencia and Delmon Young how it's done.

    Sometimes it's about beating a ball into the ground and forcing the SS to bobble or throw it away because he has to damn well hurry.

    Sometimes it's about the attention the pitcher has to pay to someone like that sitting on 1st base taking a lead and the fastball he has to deliver to the next better because he can't throw anything off speed.

    Please understand that I don't believe they should start working on the Ben Revere bust at Cooperstown. He is what he is. I just think that his play as a whole is getting under valued and I think he has earned a starting job and he'd have it if Mornaeu could play 1B and Revere in LF would help us win games.

    My point is also not so much about Revere as its about the grasping on to someone with 15 home run potential and ignoring the fact that 15 home run potential guys are everywhere and nothing special.

    If the best you can do is 15 home runs. A dinger every two weeks. Give me range speed and effort to mix in some of that 15 dinger power.

    This team as a whole does not have enough overall hitting or overall pitching to survive poor range, bad gloves or lack of effort.

    I'm not comfortable with Willingham and Doumit combining to handle two thirds of the spacious Target OF with a pitching staff that pitches to contact.
    Do you even know what his major league OBP is?

  18. #38
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    Revere is a 4th OF most likely, and if he can somehow figure out a way to hit .320 with a few doubles and 45+ SB, then he could be a somewhat decent option at CF.
    However, you can't be running him out there in RF/LF on a regular basis.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edavis0308 View Post
    Do you even know what his major league OBP is?
    Yes .304 and it's a small sample size.
    .385 in the minors with a much larger sample size.

    OPS .606 in the Majors and .793 in the Minors

    I also know that OPS is Slugging Percentage plus on base percentage and that means not just home runs. It's total bases and it's the power hitters that typcially do well in that Catagory and Revere is not a power hitter and probably never will be so using that stat to judge him is a little unfair although his OPS in the Minors is higher then both Plouffe and Parmelee and they are supposed to be power hitters.

    I know he needs to draw more walks based on last year but being that he is the closest thing to Eddie Gaedel in the major leagues today. I firmly believe that is something that will be learned down the line and be another club in his bag.

    I also know that there is more to baseball then Batting Average. I also know that there is value in someone who has a good contact rate and can stretch singles, walks and errors into two bases with the stolen base and that won't show up in the OPS.

    I know what all the stats mean. They have value but to reduce the game and opinions based upon them as your sole reference is a mistake. I'm sorry Bill James but that is true.

    Sometimes you just need a spark plug and Revere has that potential. Would I start Revere in the corner outfield over Josh Hamilton. No I would not. We don't have Josh Hamilton. We have Ryan Doumit with a .334 On Base percentage and career OPS of .775 and a pitching staff that feels overworked if they have to throw a ton of pitches to strike out batters so they let them hit the ball at Gardy and Rick Anderson's instruction.

    With our roster... I would start Ben Revere and I wouldn't think twice about it. Those who disagree with me are looking for a different type of ball player and that's OK... However I do believe that the type of ball player you are looking for... Does not exist on this current Twins Roster.

    Also keep in mind... The White Sox tried to load up on the long ball and failed. The Tigers tried it before as well and failed. The Piranhas from Minnesota beat them each time. You need a combination. Good Pitchers can take away your power and it's nice to have guys like Revere scrap something out in those situations. Play some little ball... defend and move the runners over when the chance presents itself and win a one run game with a sac fly against a pitcher that is dealing.

    It's not my intention to denegrate Doumit, Plouffe or anyone on the Twins team. I'm being forced to by defending Revere. No matter what... I'm glad he is with us. I'm pulling for him and everyone. If Plouffe can carry over his batting from Rochester last year to the major league level. I'll be the first guy to say start him and put Revere on the bench. Until then... Revere is my guy.


    Signed Respectfully

    Riverbrian

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Yes .304 and it's a small sample size.
    .385 in the minors with a much larger sample size.

    OPS .606 in the Majors and .793 in the Minors
    632 PA isn't exactly a small sample size. And his OPS outside of rookie ball and low A was .728 and decreased every single level he progressed. The reason this happened was because MLB MI > AAA MI > AA MI > A+ MI > A MI >ROOKIE BALL MI

    The bull**** infield hits he was getting against raw 17-19 year olds weren't happening as he moved up levels.
    I for one think Revere has the potential to become a surprisingly solid player, but to pretend that his track record indicates he should automatically get the benefit of the doubt at the plate is highly misguided.

    As mentioned above, Revere has to figure out a way to hit with some more pop, and increase his average to the .320 or so range in the majors to even be considered a close to average every day player.

    Also, you say Revere's . 606 OPS isn't a big deal, then Dismiss Doumits .775 a few sentences later. a .175 difference in OPS is pretty significant.

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