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Thread: Article: Twins' Rotation is Begging For Change

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Two outing of 6 innings and two of 7 innings is not a guy kicking on the door to the bigs. It's a guy who's struggling to keep his pitch counts in order against poor hitting teams. I'm not waiting for him to be perfect, I'm waiting for him to be dominant over more than one or two games. Else, might as well wait until next year, since they're gonna have to shut him down in 60 or so innings anyway.
    Dont you want him to get some big league experience this year before hes shut down rather then let him learn early next year when we have a better shot at contending (better shot, not neccesarily sqying we will)
    Experience can help a young pitcher, ala liriano in 05 when he got rocked in sept but it helped him dominate in 06

  2. #42
    Gibson won't fix what ails the rotation on his own, so what is the point of bringing him up to get bombed for two or three starts? That way he can spend his offseason thinking that he might not be good enough for the bigs? Nah. He's obviously still struggling with stamina and command after the recovery. Let him work that out, and spend the offseason hungry to be a big leaguer, dreaming about breaking 2014 with the big club.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Gibson won't fix what ails the rotation on his own, so what is the point of bringing him up to get bombed for two or three starts? That way he can spend his offseason thinking that he might not be good enough for the bigs? Nah. He's obviously still struggling with stamina and command after the recovery. Let him work that out, and spend the offseason hungry to be a big leaguer, dreaming about breaking 2014 with the big club.
    Then we can wait until after the Super Two date next year and bring him up then.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Then we can wait until after the Super Two date next year and bring him up then.
    No way. He'll be part of the plan for next year's rotation, unless his last 60 innings are terrible.

  5. #45
    I'm not ready to give up on Diamond yet. It's the 3rd time thru the order that he needs to change things up a little. As far as Gibson, it won't be long. I think Terry Ryan is already starting to field offers on Pelfrey from some of the contenders. When he is traded, and he will be, we will get our first look at Gibson with Albers coming up when Gibson hits his innings limit.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Gibson won't fix what ails the rotation on his own, so what is the point of bringing him up to get bombed for two or three starts?.
    I think it's a big reach to definitively say he would get bombed in the majors -- such a result is probably a slim chance, maybe 10%. He also probably won't dominate -- again, another 10% chance. Most likely, he will be a little inconsistent and still working towards his peak potential, but that would be true if he was up a month ago, and it will still be true if he doesn't debut until 2014.

    And a guy can post decent MLB results within those parameters too. We've already seen Correia, Walters, and Deduno have good results so far this season despite worse pedigrees, some inconsistency, poor rate stats, etc., so I think Gibson could stand a reasonable chance of doing the same.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Double-A troyhobbs's Avatar
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    Terry Ryan has an alias... it's Logan Jones

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    No way. He'll be part of the plan for next year's rotation, unless his last 60 innings are terrible.
    yeah, I wasn't being serious...

  9. #49
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Gibson won't fix what ails the rotation on his own, so what is the point of bringing him up to get bombed for two or three starts? That way he can spend his offseason thinking that he might not be good enough for the bigs?
    You can make that argument for every prospect called up to a bad team in the history of baseball.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Gibson won't fix what ails the rotation on his own, so what is the point of bringing him up to get bombed for two or three starts? ...
    To get MLB experience. Maybe to get hammered a couple of times. Learn what works in the bigs and what he needs to work on.
    That would be a good thing.

    I'd rather he did that in a lost season than a year (2014) where the Twins maybe have a serious chance to break .500.

  11. #51
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    No way. He'll be part of the plan for next year's rotation, unless his last 60 innings are terrible.
    What, did you kill a relative in battle? He's the best Twins pitching prospect since Garza, maybe even better than Garza. He's better, right now, than four fifths of the rotation. The odds against your hypotheticals are pretty long.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  12. #52
    If there were enough innings left for him to work through the initial bombing, I'd be all for it. I'd have been all for having him up since day 1. At this point, it's clear from watching his inconsistency at AAA that this year is not going to be a smooth one.

    They won't bring him up to replace Diamond in his next slot, since that would require him Making his MLB Debut in an NL park. Then his MLB debut will be vs the Yankees? Probably not.
    That would be two more starts at AAA. Let's say he's lights out and goes 17 innings in those two starts. That puts him at 110 innings. 50 to go to that 160 number. 8 starts or so, considering he probably won't be given much chance to go 7 or 8 in any of them. That means he'd face: The Blue Jays, the Rays and then the all star break. After the break: the Angels, Mariners, Astros, White Sox, Cleveland, and the White Sox again. These are all pretty light hitting teams right now, apart maybe for CLE. I can see the argument for him succeeding. if he fails against that assortment of lesser teams, there will be a lot of confidence needing to be rebuilt. (I know there's irony in skipping the Yankees who are one of the lowest scoring groups in the bunch, but Twins / Yankees, never pretty.)

    I would think that if you wanted to give him a 'cup of coffee' then bring him up for that double header against The Sox on August 9th. He might get rocked or he might do well either way it's only one game, not enough to shake any confidence and certainly enough to whet the appetite. Odds are if he stays at AAA through then he'll be darn close to his innings limit anyway. He can come up, give it a go and then get to the offseason dreaming of tasting it again.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    What, did you kill a relative in battle? He's the best Twins pitching prospect since Garza, maybe even better than Garza. He's better, right now, than four fifths of the rotation. The odds against your hypotheticals are pretty long.
    I'm not sure you read my comment correctly. I was saying there would be no way they'd keep Gibson in the minors to start next year, unless he finished 2013 with a huge flop. Like a 60 inning slog or something.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Gibson's Trade value

    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Brilliant? Maybe.

    Ahh... but Consistent? 7 of his last 8 starts ranging from: "very good" to "lights out" clearly doesn't meet that particular standard so publicly set by Twins management as "the reason" for keeping Gibson down.

    Gibson will now be around 100 IP in AAA after his next start, and within 4 months of his 26th birthday. The only thing that makes anything close to sense at this point is that the Twins are looking to maximize current SP potential values by showcasing them through the deadline, in anticipation of a trade.

    With now only around 5-6 major league starts left available to Gibson, the FO may as well start thinking about what new excuses they'll be using to keep him down in Rochester in 2014 in order to keep the arb clock from ticking.
    What kind of message does trading Gibson send? When your team needs young, high caliber, pitching, trading young high caliber pitching doesn't make sense. Not that TR always makes sense, unless there's something wrong with Gibson. What kind of return does Gibson bring when every GM that may be a trading partner asks, "The Twins need pitching a year or two from now, why would they trade a close to major league ready pitcher who Ks alot unless there was a problem?"

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    What kind of message does trading Gibson send? When your team needs young, high caliber, pitching, trading young high caliber pitching doesn't make sense. Not that TR always makes sense, unless there's something wrong with Gibson. What kind of return does Gibson bring when every GM that may be a trading partner asks, "The Twins need pitching a year or two from now, why would they trade a close to major league ready pitcher who Ks alot unless there was a problem?"
    He didn't say anything about trading Gibson

  16. #56
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Niedermann View Post
    I'm not ready to give up on Diamond yet.
    I'm not ready to give up on him yet either. I still have higher hopes for him than any of the other contact-heavy starters in the Twins' mix, because he has shown the ability to produce elite GB and BB rates.

    But his performance right now isn't simply a matter of bad luck. He's pitching terribly. He's peripherals are awful. I have hope for him as a solid mid/bottom rotation guy going forward IF he pitches like he did last year, but currently he's pitching like the bad version of Nick Blackburn. I've got to imagine something is wrong mechanically or health-wise, and he shouldn't be in the MLB rotation while that's the case. Hopefully they can get him turned around eventually.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    He didn't say anything about trading Gibson
    Thank you, I was ready to say "dude...chill"

  18. #58
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    He was far and away the best starter on Minnesota's staff in 2012,
    The above misconception and perpetuation of it, including by the likes of DickNBert who called him "the Twins' Ace" propagates the adoring of a number five pitcher at best.

    For the record, if you look at the peripherals (and not W-L and ERA) Cole DeVries was better than Diamond last season. In 2012 Diamond had a career year. Now he is regressing to the 2011 Diamond (more like cubic zirconia) Nothing new.

    Lesson learned: Just hope that nobody out there thinks that Correia a. is anything close to an "Ace" and b. wants him to stay past the trading deadline.

    Before the season started, I was very optimistic for the Twins compared to most people, but I was seeing Diamond as the number 5 pitcher and I was hoping both Gibson and Harden pitching for the Twins. I even went as far as saying that the "Twins will do as well as Harden does", which is pretty much the case.

    Diamond? Too much ado for a number five. Replacement level.

  19. #59
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    For the record, if you look at the peripherals (and not W-L and ERA) Cole DeVries was better than Diamond last season.
    If you completely ignore groundball rate of course.


    A quick glance at their FIP/xFIP marks tells a vastly different story of last season.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  20. #60
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post

    At this point, it's clear from watching his inconsistency at AAA that this year is not going to be a smooth one.

    It's clear you haven't watched lately.

    Then his MLB debut will be vs the Yankees? Probably not.

    Why not, what if he did well?

    After the break: the Angels, Mariners, Astros, White Sox, Cleveland, and the White Sox again. These are all pretty light hitting teams right now, apart maybe for CLE. I can see the argument for him succeeding. if he fails against that assortment of lesser teams, there will be a lot of confidence needing to be rebuilt.

    They're still major league teams, I don't think he's going to suffer untold emotional damage from a little bit of adversity. Why don't we just go with the succeeding arguement, it makes far more sense.


    I would think that if you wanted to give him a 'cup of coffee' then bring him up for that double header against The Sox on August 9th. He might get rocked or he might do well either way it's only one game, not enough to shake any confidence and certainly enough to whet the appetite. Odds are if he stays at AAA through then he'll be darn close to his innings limit anyway.

    Or he can spend the off season bitter and bewildered at why he didn't get a legitimate shot at an MLB rotation most people think he's already better than.

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