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Thread: Kyle Gibson, Andrew Albers and consistency

  1. #101
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    Maybe the Twins should just keep Gibson and every other prospect in the minors until 2015. Send Hicks and Arcia back down. That way we can go with an All-Rookie Team in 2015 and just hope for the best since obviously they are all going to capable MLB players and there won't be a transitional period at all. No sense using time between now and then to see what they are actually capable of.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I want to be clear that I'm not arguing against a Gibson Call Up... I'm dying to see him pitch and I have high hopes for him. I like shiny new toys like everyone else.

    However, as for your examples...

    Gausman has a 7.66 ERA in 24.2 Innings thus Far in Baltimore... He's a Tide Now.

    Walters has produced a 3.23 ERA in 30 innings thus far.

    Now... I personally would take Gausman over Walters for the long term.

    Now... If I want to win a game tomorrow... I'm going with Walters because he has been pitching decently in the majors right now while Gausman hasn't.

    Dylan Bundy has thrown 1.2 innings in the majors. He's the top prospect in baseball. I don't see how he applies.

    Machado has been great... Ian Stewart for example was a black hole.

    But let's forget about Ian Stewart... if you want to talk about Orioles only... Let's broaden the Orioles conversation to include... Zach Britton, Mike Matusz, and Jake Arrieta. These guys got cups of coffee in the big leagues... These guys were all highly ranked prospects (higher ranked than Gibson) that didn't walk in the door and hang zero's and they still haven't really hung zero's.

    Only Chris Tillman has finally started to show something and that started last year after 3 years of 5 plus ERA's. Tillman currently has a 3.61 ERA and that is higher than what PJ has produced this year.

    Meanwhile the Orioles along with Tillman are throwing a rotation of:

    Jason Hammel... Failed Colorado starter who at age 29 out of nowhere IMPROVED to a 3.43 in 2012...

    Miguel Gonzalez... He was PJ Walters last year... Finally got a starting job at Age 28 last year and pitched decently enough to get a starting rotation job... Again... at age 28.

    Freddy Garcia... AGE 92... And here comes the 4th Attempt at Zach Britton to round the rotation out.

    To me it looks like the Orioles would grab Walters and his 3.23 the very second he hits the waiver wire because we had to release him and his 3.23 to make room for Gibson and the Orioles will grab him so they don't have to throw Gausman and Bundy out of necessity.

    To me the Orioles are a prime example of using players like Walters not an example of handing out cups of coffee successfully but that's just how I see it.

    Again... I want to be clear that I'm not against a Gibson call up... But... I won't bet against Gibson and I won't bet on him but I will sit back comfortably and watch you make the safe bet that Gibson could be a solid contributor right now.
    The examples you cited were why the Orioles were willing to push the younger guys through. You see, they want to objectively determine what they have- at the major league level- with Bundy, Gausman, et al. They are sick of having to trot out Hammel, Britton and Garcia if they find out--- by using actual major league results-- that they don't have to do so. And that's the point. The Orioles are quick to find out just where their truly quality prospect players are at relative to making a solid and CONSISTENT contribution at the major league level.

    RB, you're much better than your last throwaway paragraph. If Gausman has been given the rope that he's been given, Gibson- with similar numbers to Gausman's AA numbers, but at the next level higher, AAA- would clearly have been given the exact same opportunity to pitch with the big club......so yeah, it's a safe bet that Gibson would have been given the chance to be a solid contributor with the Orioles.
    Last edited by jokin; 06-18-2013 at 03:50 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    The first two are secondhand quotes; the last two aren't quotes at all - just repeating conventional wisdom.

    I still haven't seen anything from a Twins staffer saying right out that there is a set limit that is fixed and won't be exceeded, like Strasburg last year.

    There may indeed be a ballpark/target figure, but that's different than having a hard limit.

    Secondhand quotes, in that Ryan didn't want to be pinned down specifically to an exact number in a quote. What was asked of him after he said they were going to limit Gibson's innings, was something to the effect of: "Limit his innings? So less than 150 but more than 125?" Ryan responded: "Yep." There's your second-hand quote, just as legitimate as a first-hand quote, if you choose to take the blinders off.

    The other quotes played off of what was initially reported from- and directly attributed to- Terry Ryan, as the source for the innings-limitation ground rules that were set.

    This isn't that hard, unless you're willfully refusing to see it. Terry Ryan is playing it smart, especially after he saw the reprecussions from the PR disaster with Strasburg last season.

    Your last two paragraphs are a grumbling admission to playing with semantics and succeeds in missing the big picture completely- Gibson has been down in AAA for too long, the Twins FO has laid out a myriad of excuses, reasons and "plans" that FAIL in any way to make sense for him not being called up--- except for one thing---extending his indentured servitude for the club's financial benefit is a bigger priority than promoting and developing Gibson's career at a quicker rate.

  4. #104
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    The examples you cited were why the Orioles were willing to push the younger guys through. You see, they want to objectively determine what they have- at the major league level- with Bundy, Gausman, et al. They are sick of having to trot out Hammel, Britton and Garcia if they find out--- by using actual major league results-- that they don't have to do so. And that's the point. The Orioles are quick to find out just where their truly quality prospect players are at relative to making a solid and CONSISTENT contribution at the major league level.

    RB, you're much better than your last throwaway paragraph. If Gausman has been given the rope that he's been given, Gibson- with similar numbers to Gausman's AA numbers, but at the next level higher, AAA- would clearly have been given the exact same opportunity to pitch with the big club......so yeah, it's a safe bet that Gibson would have been given the chance to be a solid contributor with the Orioles.
    LOL... Jokin... "Would have been given the chance to be a solid contributor with the Orioles" is much different than your original post which stated "A safe bet to be a solid contributor with the Orioles".

    After that confusion... you will have to forgive my last paragraph. A last paragraph that was meant to be dry humor BTW.

    The Orioles were willing to push younger guys through because they had to...

    Just like the Twins had to push Hendriks through last year. The Twins also had to push DeVries, Deduno and Walters through last year as well.

    Necessity is the mother of promotion and my contention is that I would give the ball to Walters again because a 3.23 doesn't scream necessity to me. It's screams... Thank You... This is what we need.

    Now if the argument is Pelfrey!!! I'm all ears.

    Walters... I'm giving him the ball until he shows he can't do it. The guy has spent many years working for this chance and he isn't blowing that chance... I'm not prying the ball out of the hands of a pitcher that is performing for a guy who might perform better.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 06-18-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    My reasoning isn't on BOnnes' list: I want 40-60 innings in the majors so that he can learn the difference in advancing from AAA and work on those in ST next year rather than an up and down spring of adjustments in 2014.

    A small part is also not to take our best near ready starting pitcher and make him resentful of how his performances will be rewarded by the organization.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    LOL... Jokin... "Would have been given the chance to be a solid contributor with the Orioles" is much different than your original post which stated "A safe bet to be a solid contributor with the Orioles".

    After that confusion... you will have to forgive my last paragraph. A last paragraph that was meant to be dry humor BTW.

    The Orioles were willing to push younger guys through because they had to...

    Just like the Twins had to push Hendriks through last year. The Twins also had to push DeVries, Deduno and Walters through last year as well.

    Necessity is the mother of promotion and my contention is that I would give the ball to Walters again because a 3.23 doesn't scream necessity to me. It's screams... Thank You... This is what we need.

    Now if the argument is Pelfrey!!! I'm all ears.

    Walters... I'm giving him the ball until he shows he can't do it. The guy has spent many years working for this chance and he isn't blowing that chance... I'm not prying the ball out of the hands of a pitcher that is performing for a guy who might perform better.
    Your last paragraph attempt at humor was Death Valley dry.

    And my last paragraph had admittedly conflated thoughts, but I closed the paragraph by saying that Gibson would have been given the chance to pitch to be a significant SP contributor this year on at least half the teams in the majors. And he would be a solid contributor to the Orioles, at minimum, in the sense that Gausman's body of work thus far can be considered contributory. Let's not pick "dry as dust", nits, shall we?

    On Walters, I believe I was the first one on TD (still waiting for my prize winnings- I'll take either Jarts or a Zip Wing Rocket Glider) to call for, and predict that PJ would get the first call-up over Gibson. He still shouldn't be part of the long-term plan, nothing suggests any screaming that he's a long-term necessity- nothing.

    And I'll counter your second dry and wry comment with this: The Twins aren't willing to push younger guys because they won't- because they're very, very...er... frugal.

    And who said it's either Walters or Gibson? Generally, your best guys who project to the future should be given priority in pitching opportunities, especially when you're presumably "rebuilding". The guy with the second best FIP in the IL doesn't deserve a chance? Really? Oh, BTW, Gibson's numbers are better than Walter's numbers at Roc. This doesn't have to be either Walters or Gibson. If they truly are building for the future, then Gibson has to be in the rotation to get his baptism of fire out of the way and help both him and the team make more informed decisions about how to proceed with his career path.

    The Twins are carrying 13 pitchers, how about a 6 man rotation, or how about giving Gibson 4-5 innings and one of the other SP guys not part of the future the other 4-5. This can be done in a way that makes everyone a winner. It might even be considered, "a plan."
    Last edited by jokin; 06-18-2013 at 05:22 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    How are AAA innings less stressful? If it is number of pitches, put him on a pitch count. Can someone explain how throwing the ball in AAA hurts your arm less than in the majors?
    I can try to explain it.

    Quoted from this article "high stress, high pitch count innings can be really detrimental"

    Innings Pitched | Baseball Guys

    Gibson's best secondary pitch is the slider

    Too Many Sliders? | FanGraphs Baseball

    Major league batters are much better so...

    -Gibson will endure fewer high leverage/high pitch count innings in the minors.

    -Gibson can get more guys out with his fastball and will thrower fewer higher stress pitches like the slider over the course of a game.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    My reasoning isn't on BOnnes' list: I want 40-60 innings in the majors so that he can learn the difference in advancing from AAA and work on those in ST next year rather than an up and down spring of adjustments in 2014.

    A small part is also not to take our best near ready starting pitcher and make him resentful of how his performances will be rewarded by the organization.
    Spot on, simply pithily on point. Why is this so hard for those to understand that finding those innings at the small expense of fringe starters losing those innings is most beneficial to a club in "rebuilding" mode?

    And, what ever happened to "no more scholarships." Did the "plan" change when I wasn't looking?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I can try to explain it.

    Quoted from this article "high stress, high pitch count innings can be really detrimental"

    Innings Pitched | Baseball Guys

    Gibson's best secondary pitch is the slider

    Too Many Sliders? | FanGraphs Baseball

    Major league batters are much better so...

    -Gibson will endure fewer high leverage/high pitch count innings in the minors.

    -Gibson can get more guys out with his fastball and will thrower fewer higher stress pitches like the slider over the course of a game.
    Which all can be adjusted for at the major league level. Pitch counts remedy this concern completely. If he is going to need to be afforded this level of babying over his slider issues than he really isn't a major league SP prospect anymore. Sounds like you're nominating Gibson to a permanent place on the Red Wings.

  10. #110
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Your last paragraph attempt at humor was Death Valley dry.
    I am made of sand... I get stared at all the time with heads tilted slightly and a blank look. It's because of that dryness.

    For full disclosure: I want to see Gibson and I want to see him now. Mostly I admit for the shiny new toy reason but I do think he's due for a look and I do think facing Prince Fielder would be a great experience for his development and he needs to be good for us.

    Walters: Is pitching well and he has my full support as long as he is. He will be a great story if he keeps it up. I like seeing pitchers get rewarded for working on getting better. Even older guys.

    Deduno: I'm a huge fan... I want him to stay a Twin for a long time. Too much talent and Entertainment. I'm crazy but I think that Sam can be a top of the rotation guy with a little mechanics adjustment.

    Correia: He ain't going anywhere... He's got a contract for next year and he's pitching well. He's one of us now.

    Diamond: Has been inconsistent but he doesn't deserve to be sent down to experiment with someone unproven.

    Pelfrey: He's the guy to move for Gibson but he's been a little better and may be getting better and his contract will give him a little rope. However... He hasn't been very good... I wanted Pelfrey this past off season... I admit it... But personally... I don't think that he has worked out and... Despite the improvement in numbers latelly... I'm still not seeing the command that he needs to say I'm comfortable yet.

    Gibson: I want to see him but he comes with no gaurentee and right now... The current 5 man rotation has put together some decent starts and is looking OK for now.

    Albers... I know nothing about him... Hope he is a solid option when he gets his chance.

    I'll remain patient... Cuz an injury or implosion is always around the corner.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Secondhand quotes, in that Ryan didn't want to be pinned down specifically to an exact number in a quote. What was asked of him after he said they were going to limit Gibson's innings, was something to the effect of: "Limit his innings? So less than 150 but more than 125?" Ryan responded: "Yep." There's your second-hand quote, just as legitimate as a first-hand quote, if you choose to take the blinders off.

    The other quotes played off of what was initially reported from- and directly attributed to- Terry Ryan, as the source for the innings-limitation ground rules that were set.

    This isn't that hard, unless you're willfully refusing to see it. Terry Ryan is playing it smart, especially after he saw the reprecussions from the PR disaster with Strasburg last season.

    Your last two paragraphs are a grumbling admission to playing with semantics and succeeds in missing the big picture completely- Gibson has been down in AAA for too long, the Twins FO has laid out a myriad of excuses, reasons and "plans" that FAIL in any way to make sense for him not being called up--- except for one thing---extending his indentured servitude for the club's financial benefit is a bigger priority than promoting and developing Gibson's career at a quicker rate.
    News flash, Gibson is beyond super 2 and extra free agency year. He can get called up today and the financial benefit would exist... yet he's still in Rochester. Let's stop arguing that this is all about Gibson's service time.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    News flash, Gibson is beyond super 2 and extra free agency year. He can get called up today and the financial benefit would exist... yet he's still in Rochester. Let's stop arguing that this is all about Gibson's service time.
    Newsflash to diehards everywhere, I posted this factual information yesterday when Wil Myers was officially promoted. The clock is now ticking. We're all waiting for even more consistency. It's part of "the plan." Being the 2nd best-rated FIP pitcher and being a very good, to lights-out effective starter in 7 of your last 10 starts in AAA is simply not enough. Let's gather even more information about guys who have close to Zero Percent chance of being here when the games mean something again, cause that's what rebuilding teams are supposed to do (according to the plan? What plan?)
    Last edited by jokin; 06-18-2013 at 09:02 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Not to mention Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins, Garza and Liriano were all top 100 prospects. It is absolute folly to think Gibson is a given. If this front office is basing decisions on blind assumption we're in for a long rebuild.



    You seem to be annoyed by anyone who would suggest the front office should opperate differently. You might not like it here. I'm not sure what exactly you'd have us discuss, the team is losing and generally change is the remedy.
    I just reviewed the new comment policy. Great read. I think we're supposed to be talking about the Twins and not other posters. I appreciate your concern on whether or not I will like it here. I don't much care for Twins bashing, but I do know how to use an ignore list.
    Last edited by howieramone; 06-19-2013 at 03:12 AM.

  14. #114
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    I just reviewed the new comment policy. Great read. I think we're supposed to be talking about the Twins and not other posters.

    What a coincidence, I just re-reviewed the comment policy again myself. One particular bit caught my eye (underline emphasis mine)...

    We invite members to notify us if any comments violate these guidelines so we can take appropriate action, rather than police it (or worse, angrily react) in the comments section. Each comment has a small icon shaped like a triangle with an exclamation point in it. By clicking on this icon, community members can easily notify us of possible violations.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    What a coincidence, I just re-reviewed the comment policy again myself. One particular bit caught my eye (underline emphasis mine)...
    Just wondering....Do you get overtime for:

    moderating the forum, consulting and reposting the comment policy and then pithily putting us pissants back in our places after midnight?

  16. #116
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Let me check my contract....nope, nothing.

    I would strike for better benefits, but sadly my leverage resides somewhere between zero, and zero.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  17. #117
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Let me check my contract....nope, nothing.

    I would strike for better benefits, but sadly my leverage resides somewhere between zero, and zero.
    Quit complaining and get back to moderating.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Newsflash to diehards everywhere, I posted this factual information yesterday when Wil Myers was officially promoted. The clock is now ticking. We're all waiting for even more consistency. It's part of "the plan." Being the 2nd best-rated FIP pitcher and being a very good, to lights-out effective starter in 7 of your last 10 starts in AAA is simply not enough. Let's gather even more information about guys who have close to Zero Percent chance of being here when the games mean something again, cause that's what rebuilding teams are supposed to do (according to the plan? What plan?)
    Will Meyers wasn't the magic line between super2/not super 2. My point is that the main reason being put about on these forums for Gibson's lack of call up is money. IT'S NOT MONEY. He'd be up by now if money is the driving force.

    Something else is going on here, and I'm not going to sit back and pretend that it's a combination of being cheap and being inept.

  19. #119
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    What is your theory? Just curious.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I'm not going to sit back and pretend that it's a combination of being cheap and being inept.
    Plenty of folks here would vehemently disagree with you, as you can see by the majority of the previous 110+ posts.

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