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Thread: Walters

  1. #21
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    Payroll!
    Lighten up Francis....

  2. #22
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Guys, a couple starts by Walters instead of Gibson is not going to be the ruin of the season. Their numbers are remarkably similar at AAA. It's not like Gibson has been blowing every batter out of the water and they are calling up guys he's been putting to shame.

    Both Walters and Deduno are out of options and you wouldn't expect them to be on long leashes. Rolling the dice right now on a couple of guys who have flashed talent but just haven't stuck for whatever reason is not a horrible option for a team that drastically needs a better rotation not just today, but for a long time to come.

  3. #23
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    There may or may not be good reasons for this, but it's hard not to believe this is money related at some level. That's the rub, if you generally act a certain way, it's hard for outsiders to believe that decisions are not made for reasons consistent with that way.

    And, every inning in AAA is an inning not in the majors for Gibson. Fans want to see top prospects, not AAAA players. It really is that simple for me and for others.
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #24
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    There may or may not be good reasons for this, but it's hard not to believe this is money related at some level. That's the rub, if you generally act a certain way, it's hard for outsiders to believe that decisions are not made for reasons consistent with that way.

    And, every inning in AAA is an inning not in the majors for Gibson. Fans want to see top prospects, not AAAA players. It really is that simple for me and for others.
    Both very understandable points.

    Let's hope for the best here and then we can jump for joy when the Twins found a diamond in the rough. Otherwise, we'll see Gibson shortly anyway... although I think we will either way.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay View Post
    Guys, a couple starts by Walters instead of Gibson is not going to be the ruin of the season. Their numbers are remarkably similar at AAA. It's not like Gibson has been blowing every batter out of the water and they are calling up guys he's been putting to shame.

    Both Walters and Deduno are out of options and you wouldn't expect them to be on long leashes. Rolling the dice right now on a couple of guys who have flashed talent but just haven't stuck for whatever reason is not a horrible option for a team that drastically needs a better rotation not just today, but for a long time to come.
    Flashed talent? Are you kidding me? Deduno turns 30 in a month and Walters is 28. These guys haven't stuck because they don't have the talent. Don't give me the BS about Deduno's WBC results. They've been in professional baseball for almost 10 years, the jury is out of them. Each passed through waivers without a team claiming them because they aren't worth a spot on any other 40-man roster. The Twins are idiots. Neither of these two fit into the future. They should be bottom of the barrel, last option guys, which is essentially what they are. I have no problem with them getting starts (like in 2012) when there is no other realistic option. When you have a guy like Gibson who is even borderline ready, unanimously thought to be called up at some point, has the talent to be a pretty good pitcher, and pass him up for these two? For what? Saving a few million by avoiding super-2 (which, by the way, isn't a concrete time like avoiding arb). I hope Terry Ryan is fired.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    And, every inning in AAA is an inning not in the majors for Gibson. Fans want to see top prospects, not AAAA players. It really is that simple for me and for others.
    Exactly. PJ Walters is not going to be on the next Twins playoff team. Kyle Gibson should be. This stinks.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    I would prefer Gibson being limited to a small amount of innings over the next month in Rochester than calling him up right now. Walters makes sense. Keep in mind that Gibson is going to be limited to 100 innings max for the rest of the season.
    Right, so why squander them in Rochester? So now he's going to be limited to 11-12 MLB starts before being shut down in mid August? If the Twins want to pretend that they want to compete next year, you'd think they'd want him to get a little more experience this year.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    There may or may not be good reasons for this, but it's hard not to believe this is money related at some level. That's the rub, if you generally act a certain way, it's hard for outsiders to believe that decisions are not made for reasons consistent with that way.

    And, every inning in AAA is an inning not in the majors for Gibson. Fans want to see top prospects, not AAAA players. It really is that simple for me and for others.
    Dead right on both points.

    I would add that if the Twins were still floating near .500 I could accept this a little more but this is a farce on top of a fiasco.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
    Flashed talent? Are you kidding me? Deduno turns 30 in a month and Walters is 28. These guys haven't stuck because they don't have the talent. Don't give me the BS about Deduno's WBC results.
    Wouldn't that just about be the definition of 'flashed talent'?

    I guess I tend to take a bit of a longer view and don't see this as a terrible thing. These guys didn't embarrass themselves last year... Walters started well, but tailed off when it turned out he was injured. Their numbers basically match Gibson's this year and it's a last chance for both of them. They most likely won't stick, but there's at least a chance and this organization desparately needs SP for the long haul. I don't think many of us here thought we'd win 90 games this year. So why not? What's the big deal now? Because we were .500 after a month or so?

    If Deduno or Walters stink, we'll see Gibson. If one of them gives up a 6.00 ERA for 4 starts before that happens and we assume Gibson would have been a 4.00, we're talking like a 4-5 run difference total. Hard to picture that costing us the playoff run that none of us envisioned in the first place...

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay View Post
    Wouldn't that just about be the definition of 'flashed talent'?

    I guess I tend to take a bit of a longer view and don't see this as a terrible thing. These guys didn't embarrass themselves last year... Walters started well, but tailed off when it turned out he was injured. Their numbers basically match Gibson's this year and it's a last chance for both of them. They most likely won't stick, but there's at least a chance and this organization desparately needs SP for the long haul. I don't think many of us here thought we'd win 90 games this year. So why not? What's the big deal now? Because we were .500 after a month or so?

    If Deduno or Walters stink, we'll see Gibson. If one of them gives up a 6.00 ERA for 4 starts before that happens and we assume Gibson would have been a 4.00, we're talking like a 4-5 run difference total. Hard to picture that costing us the playoff run that none of us envisioned in the first place...
    Here is the problem. Gibson needs innings in the MLB to adjust. These two getting 4 starts, are 4 starts they are taking away from Gibson's development. I believe it is a poor choice by management to do this since it is unlikely Gibson will be pitching an entire season anyway. I'm not arguing that these two can't put together an acceptable couple of starts, there is just no reason they should be the choice over Gibson right now other than saving a few million in arb. If the idea is to sink or swim with a last chance audition then whatever, I just don't believe now is the right time for that or that either has earned another "chance."

    How can guys like Walters and Deduno keep getting a "chance" when Slama has been shunned for 5 years (really, he's been in AAA with a >10 K/9 rate). ****ing irritating that they can't be consistent in their logic. If they don't feel Slama has the "stuff" when he has an extremely good K rate, how the hell do these two keep getting to tickle Gardy under the desk?
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  11. #31
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    Don't ruin a perfectly good point by mentioning Slama.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    don't ruin a perfectly good point by mentioning slama.
    free slama!!!!

    FrEe SlAmA

    Take that stupid all-cap filter. Don't like reading all-caps? Try reading alternating caps!
    Last edited by Badsmerf; 05-24-2013 at 09:50 AM. Reason: all-cap filter is lame
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
    Here is the problem. Gibson needs innings in the MLB to adjust. These two getting 4 starts, are 4 starts they are taking away from Gibson's development. I believe it is a poor choice by management to do this since it is unlikely Gibson will be pitching an entire season anyway.
    That's a fair point. I agree that Gibby will probably need some time to adjust, but I don't personally see a few weeks as a career changer for him or our current season. I know a lot of folks hate the money angle, but when you have a few guys that aren't completely underdeserving of a chance and we're talking about the possibility of a few millions of dollars down the road... it makes the argument to call him up that much harder.

    With you on Slama though, brother. Might be too late.

  14. #34
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    Ya, with another 20MM coming off the books this year, and $25MM more in revenue, worrying about super 2 is really key to the success of this team in the next 4 years.....sorry, it just isn't relevant. It's not.
    Lighten up Francis....

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Ya, with another 20MM coming off the books this year, and $25MM more in revenue, worrying about super 2 is really key to the success of this team in the next 4 years.....sorry, it just isn't relevant. It's not.
    I knew you'd jump on that one! No one saying it's the key to success, but we want a long-term contender. Best way to do that is to manage your roster in a smart, economic fashion... even when that means you have to wait a whole, painful, non-season changing 3 weeks to see a prospect that hasn't proven anything.

  16. #36
    In my opinion, managing and developing players is all about agthering info. What moves can you make to gather the most information possible, and how can you use that information to give the player the best opportunity to succeed.

    Again, IMO, the Twins should know what they have in PJ Walters which is a fringe major league/AAA pitcher who can be successful in spurts but has not demonstrated the ability to do so over an extended period of time. Same arguement could be made for Deduno though I feel he has more potential because of his ability to gets swings and misses. However, the Twins have no idea what Gibson can do at the major league level. What information are you gathering by bringing up BOTH Walters and Deduno rather than Gibson? The answer is very little.

    If you need an example of why it is important to bring up Gibson as quickly as possible, see Liam Hendriks. Hendriks has looked great against minor league talent but has really struggled at the major league level. While that is unfortuante, at least the Twins have gathered that information and will not count on Hendriks contributing at the major league level until he has worked some things out. This exemplifies why it is important to get Gibson ASAP. You have to know what you can count on heading into next season.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay View Post
    I knew you'd jump on that one! No one saying it's the key to success, but we want a long-term contender. Best way to do that is to manage your roster in a smart, economic fashion...
    Especially important when you keep lowering your payroll...

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Gibson is not a Major League player so I don't believe he is included in the playrs union as of yet. If he were, there certainly would be grounds to file a grevience. I don't think there has been a team in such dire need of a starting pitcher that continues to reject the most obvious and rational candidate to this extreme.
    I don't know if he is covered either, but I seriously doubt he would have a grievance either way. The only question is - are the Twins moves permitted within the terms of the CBA and the Rules of baseball. If the answer is yes then, whatever the motivation and regardless if it is the smartest move or not, there is nothing that is actionable.

  19. #39
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Walters has a great curve and has had some nice moments but he doesn't have a major-league fastball. Excruciatingly tough to succeed with that going against you. I'm sure the appeal for the Twins is that he's pitched into the seventh six times in his past seven starts.

    Really does look like we're going to have to wait for the Super 2 deadline to pass to see Gibson. Oh well.

  20. #40
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    OK, I'll be the contrary one.

    I don't believe this has much to do with Gibson's Super-2 status. It might be one aspect on that side of the equation, but it's a small thing. The big things, frankly, are that he hasn't been able to put two solid starts in a row and that they feel they can better control his innings limit (and thus his health) by keeping him in AAA.

    For those that feel this is purely financial, I'll ask the obvious question (which Terry Ryan himself has asked): if that's so important for Gibson, which isn't is important for Hicks and Arcia?
    - Hicks and Arcia are both much younger than Gibson
    - Both are perceived to be as valuable in the future as Gibson (and probably with less risk)
    - In both cases their promotion effects when they turn into free agents, which is a much bigger deal than when a player reaches Super-2.

    So, if this is such a driving force for the organization, why are they sticking it to Gibson and not Hicks and Arcia?

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