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Thread: Business of Baseball: Gibson, Hicks, Arcia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Why even cheer for the Twins, move to New York, buy some pinstripes, and spend 500 dollars for an upper deck ticket if you want your team to spend 800 million dollars/year.
    You know the arguement is not going to end in the Twins favor if you really want to start comparing what it costs to go to the various staduims compared to team payroll right?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    I wonder what Gardenhire, who is allegedly managing for his job this season, thinks of the Twins keeping Gibson at AAA in order to potentially save a couple million dollars a few years down the road.
    Before his shutout on the 8th he hadn't exactly been lighting the world on fire in AAA. Now that he has thrown efficient shut outs in 2 of his last 3 starts RIGHT NOW is probably the time where calling up him is seen as the probable action. I really don't think it's a situation where he has dominated all season in AAA and been ignored.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Gibson has not pitched well enough to deserve a promotion until the last week or so. His first complete game was against the worst hitting team in all of the minors (and possibly some college teams). This last game was the real deal. But if he comes out with a clunker on Thursday, he does not warrant a call up. All these people talking about saving money is redonk. Why even cheer for the Twins, move to New York, buy some pinstripes, and spend 500 dollars for an upper deck ticket if you want your team to spend 800 million dollars/year. They are not doing a disservice to Gibby by keeping him down, they are doing what is best for the team and him.

    A: are you sure it is best for the team?
    B: how is this best for him, and how do you know?
    C: it is true, I am not a true, good, right kind of, fan....
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #24
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Personally... I'd be disappointed (actually pissed) if any decisions on prospects are based upon 2013 being a lost cause.

    At this point 6 games behind is not a lost cause and Hicks and Arcia decisions should be based on if they help us win right now. If they don't help us win now... Send them down. I think Arcia helps us win right now... Not so sure about Hicks.

    We can talk about the season being a lost cause when the season is actually... A lost cause. It's not a lost cause right now and teams fortunes can change on a dime but if the team doesn't find inspiration soon... We will hit the lost cause moment.

    The team doesn't seem very inspired right now.

    Pitching has to be addressed and very very soon. If Deduno or Gibson will pitch better than Hernandez... Make the move now. Pelfrey and Worley are complicated but they are next...

    Any toleration of ERA's over 6 is intolerable. Yes we need them to find themselves... But we can't wait much longer. These decisions are hard.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Any toleration of ERA's over 6 is intolerable. Yes we need them to find themselves... But we can't wait much longer. These decisions are hard.
    I only disagree in the fact that this number should be lowered to 5.

  6. #26
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I only disagree in the fact that this number should be lowered to 5.
    Somewhere Scott Diamond breathes a sigh of relief, "I'm safe!"
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    There is usually some middle ground in these kinds of decisions. The Twins just don't typically land in it. There probably would have been little reaction had the Twins called Hicks, Arcia and Gibson up before the Super 2 cut off but after the service time exemption.

    Likewise, fans likely would not have gotten upset had they not persued Grinke had they gone after Dempster, Haren or Jackson instead of the bottom of the barrell options the team chose.

    We also likely would not be upset if the Twins gave players two days to test out an injury before putting them on the DL instead of waiting a week and playing with a 24-man-roster during that time.

    Similarly they have almost no ability to find pitchers who can manage an acceptable K% and BB%, they seem to always find guys who are very good at one while terrible at the other.


    So perhaps if this team started operating within an accepted margin of error, we would be more forgiving.
    These are of course separate issues. I actually think the timing mentioned regarding Arcia and Gibson are not quite accurate. I thought Arcia cleared the threshold and Gibson would need more time than suggested. I am especially curious on Arcia. In general I take the let them play and let service time issues sort themselves out later. Twins have plenty of money to play with.

  8. #28
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    And as mentioned why not let the kids try to win. Gibson should have been up two starts ago.

  9. #29
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Arcia definitely didn't clear the 20-day threshold, he originally came up after just 14 days.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    I don't know why anyone would criticize the FO...I mean clearly this year's rotation has been substantially improved as promised.
    Lots of selective memory by the Twin-spinners lately, at least the ones still posting, anyway.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    Can Hicks stay up if he stays around .150 all year? Honest question?

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    I hadn't heard that. Last year it was early June still... but I'm not sure.
    I don't think it's a hard date. It's on a percentage basis. I believe the player needs to be in the top 20% of his rookie class. If it's a particularly light year for rookies, it might go to July.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    A: are you sure it is best for the team?
    B: how is this best for him, and how do you know?
    C: it is true, I am not a true, good, right kind of, fan....
    Wasn't trolling, just saying, if they kept Gibby down for monetary reasons, why did they not keep Hicks and Arcia down for the same reasons? I don't know what is best for the team but the "Twins way" of cautiously moving prospects up is the right way to go. Gibson more than likely will get the starting nod so the point is mute. If it was "all about the money," they would wait until after he would be eligible for super 2. Also I love calling out the Yankees because the Bronx sux, it smells like piss, and YES network can **** ** **** (insert your own expletives!)
    Last edited by Twins Twerp; 05-20-2013 at 04:52 PM.

  14. #34
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    ya, Baltimore totally blew calling up Machado. And whatever LA and Wash were thinking with Trout and harper....idiots. I don't know if we know the Twins way works or not. The evidence the last 10 years or so would say "not".

    moot, btw.
    Lighten up Francis....

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Gibson has not pitched well enough to deserve a promotion until the last week or so. His first complete game was against the worst hitting team in all of the minors (and possibly some college teams). This last game was the real deal. But if he comes out with a clunker on Thursday, he does not warrant a call up. All these people talking about saving money is redonk. Why even cheer for the Twins, move to New York, buy some pinstripes, and spend 500 dollars for an upper deck ticket if you want your team to spend 800 million dollars/year. They are not doing a disservice to Gibby by keeping him down, they are doing what is best for the team and him.
    Gibson went 9 innings again, the last time he did that they gave him an extra day's rest. Plus you have DeVries now back, and a Red Wings off-day on Wednesday. That would put him back until Saturday or even Sunday, unless the Twins call him up for Friday night. DeVries pitches tonight, Deduno tomorrow, Walters pitched Saturday night.

    How about your AA rostered starters? Guess who pitched on Sunday? The odds are probably 50-50 that it sounds like it will be BJ Hermsen Coming Out Party this coming Friday.....

  16. #36
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    Originally Posted by Riverbrian Any toleration of ERA's over 6 is intolerable. Yes we need them to find themselves... But we can't wait much longer. These decisions are hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I only disagree in the fact that this number should be lowered to 5.
    Wait a minute, I thought the "Correia Standard for Acceptable Suckitude" was firmly established this spring on this very site:

    "4-5 runs over 5-6 innings at least gives us a chance..."

  17. #37
    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    I read the projected cutoff *this season* for Super-2 status is 2.119 days. If Kyle Gibson came up (instead of Thielbar) and never went back down, he'd complete the 2015 season with 2.133 days. So Seth is right on when he says 2 weeks, but the cut-off will fluctuate in the next two-plus years.

    This, from MLBTR, explains why the cutoff would actually move up, instead of back.
    A player with at least two years but less than three is eligible for arbitration if he has accumulated at least 86 days of service during the immediately preceding season and ranks in the top 22% in total service in the two-to-three class. The current collective bargaining agreement, which went into effect December 12th, 2011, raised that Super Two percentage from 17% to 22%.


    BTW - Worley is in line to have 2.152 days of service at the end of the year. He, Plouffe and Butera (for now) will all be Super-2s.
    Last edited by Jeremy Nygaard; 05-20-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    ya, Baltimore totally blew calling up Machado. And whatever LA and Wash were thinking with Trout and harper....idiots. I don't know if we know the Twins way works or not. The evidence the last 10 years or so would say "not".

    moot, btw.
    Hey, maybe he was just making a "quiet" point?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post


    BTW - Worley is in line to have 2.152 days of service at the end of the year. He, Plouffe and Butera (for now) will all be Super-2s.
    I think you might want to add the "(for now)" qualifier for Worley, as well.

  20. #40
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    This is all over the place! Is the % issue correct? I think it is something like that for Super-2, but I am confused.

    In any event:

    The Twins somehow don't care about money, here. Or something. Gibson is not "stuck" in AAA (really, he's been good, but with some shaky starts here and there) because of money. No way. I imagine they may want to see him string along a number of good starts in row before they get all Hendriks on him (not comparing the two strictly, but you get the idea). I am just pissed about the innings limit that he is undoubtedly on and IF the Twins are actually someone going to get back in the swing of things (why are so many people freaking out over this last series???), it would suck to see Gibson be the best Twins pitcher in June, July, and August and then they have to shut him down.

    I don't really care about his service time, though. Hicks and Arcia can BOTH use time in AAA. There now seems to be a reasonable replacement for both: Antoan Richardson to get a shot leading off (I know he is playing out of his mind, but I kinda like giving a guy who is likely going to know that THIS IS HIS LAST CHANCE to play in the majors that chance). He is the only sensible leadoff possibility with good OBP in the minors this year and excellent speed.

    With regard to Arcia, Chris Colabello works. Arcia was getting plenty of DH time, Colabello doesn't need to play every day anyway. He is also could be useful as a starter against hectic lefties to give Morneau and Parmelee (with Ramirez) a non-start and perhaps a PH opportunity later on.

    Doing this can also turn into a valid competition between Colabello and Ramirez as bench bats during the AAA time for Hicks and Arcia. You all might look at Ramirez as sucky, but when he was primarily NOT starting (three out of his last games have been as a starter) he did his job well enough. It would be a bit prickish to just send him down without actually losing his role.

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