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Thread: The 2012 "Complain About Gardy" Thread

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    The 2012 "Complain About Gardy" Thread

    It's one of the great baseball pasttimes: complaining about the manager. So let's use this as our Festivus Airing Of Grievances as the year rolls on. Since the season hasn't really started yet, I'll kick things off with a simple question (I think by TwinsDaily member Kirsten Brown) that Aaron and I addressed on a podcast a few weeks back:

    "If you could have Ron Gardenhire changes any ONE THING about how he manages, what would it be?"

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    ONE thing? Does retiring count?

    I think if I had to chose ONE thing, it would be not to give away outs by playing small ball and trying to move runners up. The scoring probability of a runner on 1st with 1 out is higher than that of one on 2nd and 2 outs...
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  3. #3
    Just one thing? Darn, OK.
    Gardy has a propensity to leave a pitcher in the game too long. He's too slow to pull a pitcher, which oftentimes causes the game to get out of reach.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    It's one of the great baseball pasttimes: complaining about the manager. So let's use this as our Festivus Airing Of Grievances as the year rolls on. Since the season hasn't really started yet, I'll kick things off with a simple question (I think by TwinsDaily member Kirsten Brown) that Aaron and I addressed on a podcast a few weeks back:

    "If you could have Ron Gardenhire changes any ONE THING about how he manages, what would it be?"
    I don't know if this is actually a good strategy or not but it seems whenever we have guys on 1st and 3rd, and especially when the guy on first is Span or Casilla, he should have them steal second. But it seems we never do that. Maybe that's the smart thing to do, I don't know. But he talks about wanting speed, that seems like a time to use it and put pressure on the defense. (Figured this was more fun to complain about than his bunting strategies or a discussion of who should be batting second).

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    Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer minn55441's Avatar
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    Days off?

    I like Gardy as a manager, but I still have frustrations. He tends to give all of the starters the same day off. A day game after a night game has turned into "starters take the day off game". I wish he would plan things out better. Rest Mauer one day, Span the next etc. Instead of his current rotation of sitting everyone the same game.

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    minn55441, that's an interesting question. Are they better off "losing" with a really weak team 1 time a week or so, or having a weaker team all throughout the week by resting starters say, three times a week? I don't know the answer to that question.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.
    Respectively disagree. Baseball is situational. There are examples in any inning where a sacrifice is correct. It depends on several factors, the most important of which is the score. You only need to win by ONE run. I've never heard any of these stat geeks acknowledge that simple fact. Everything about baseball strategy works out better when your team is AHEAD. Get ahead, then grind it out. You don't need three run homers to grind it out.

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    Junior Member Rookie sln477's Avatar
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    I am definitely in the minority when it comes to what is affectionately known as "Gardy bashing" when it comes to Twins fans. I wouldn't change a thing about his managing. I do disagree from time to time about certain strategies, but I trust in his instincts. I view the front office the same way, even though I don't always agree with what transpires. These people are hired by the owners to get the job done & thus have placed their trust & faith in them to get same job done. I am now bound by that faith & trust that these people will get the job done. It doesn't always work out, bad decisions are made, mistakes magnified, & the end result is less than satisfactory. These folks have a very difficult job to do & I applaud them in their efforts. I, along with most, are quick to blurt out our opinions about how we would change things, but it isn't always that simple. I guess that's why we don't have these coveted jobs in the Twins organization. GO TWINS!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.
    Gardy gets too much crap about bunting. Guess which team had more sac bunts last year- Twins or Yanks? (Yanks). Gardner (OBP .345) and Casilla (OBP .322) led both teams w/8, which makes sense since both can bunt for a hit and if they fail it goes down as a sac bunt. After that, the best on-base guy Gardy used to bunt was Revere (.310 OBP and pretty fast). Then it was a bunch of sub-.300 OBP guys - Butera, Nishi, Tolbert, Plouffe etc. Basically, automatic outs. Granderson, who hit 41 homers, had as many sac bunts as Tolbert.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Don't give up outs, unless it is the 8th or 9th inning in a 1 run game, ever. Outs are the single most precious resource in the game. Never, ever sacrifice bunt before the 8th inning. Really, never. It's just bad math, really, really bad math.
    Gotta disagree with this as well. The situation dictates the strategy. For example: Tie game or down by one run in an away ballpark, 6th inning, no outs. Casilla's on 2nd, Span's on 1st. Carroll coming up to bat with Mauer on deck, Morneau in the hole. I'm bunting. Think about it. In fact, I would criticize Gardy for NOT bunting in this situation.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

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    Coaching a major league baseball team is very difficult. We, as fans, applaud management when things go right, and rip them when it doesn't. Part of the game. Does Gardy make mistakes sometimes? Of course. But, hindsight is always 20/20...GOOD LUCK Gardy, and GO TWINS!

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    Stop babying your players! Stop being intimidated by teams in the AL East and West! Career record vs Yankees is 20-65! He has set the organization back 10 years. Completely responsible for last years debacle. He has had the most talented players in Twins history and can't even win ONE playoff game Take your pick.
    Last edited by Fanatic Jack; 04-02-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsFanLV View Post
    Respectively disagree. Baseball is situational. There are examples in any inning where a sacrifice is correct. It depends on several factors, the most important of which is the score. You only need to win by ONE run. I've never heard any of these stat geeks acknowledge that simple fact. Everything about baseball strategy works out better when your team is AHEAD. Get ahead, then grind it out. You don't need three run homers to grind it out.
    Actually a lot of stat guys (like myself) will acknowledge that you only have to win by one. But by giving outs away (such as bunting) you reduce your chances of scoring 1 run or 3 runs.

    Let's say you're down 1 run in the bottom of the 6th inning. 1 out, guy on first. Parmalee is up. Do you bunt? How about Span or Revere? No. Moving the guy to 2nd base with 2-outs reduces your chances of scoring 1 run, 2 runs, or any amount of runs. Basically, in order to regularly justify bunting, you must have someone that is offensively inept as Butera. Otherwise, it almost never makes sense.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    I hate the fact the he wont split up the lefties in the lineup. In the past it has been Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, Cuddyer, Young. Why not put Cuddyer in between Morneau and Kubel. He makes easy to manage against when you do that.

  16. #16
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty rare that Gardy (or any manager) orders a sacrifice bunt with one out.

  17. #17
    Baseball is a slow, plodding, methodical game. It's such a slow moving game that I can see how people who don't understand the strategery of the game don't really see much appeal to baseball. "Managing along from home" is one of my favorite things to do as the course of a game unfolds. All of these things factor into baseball being the Grand Game of Hindsight.

    I have no problem with people challenging the manager's decisions. I think most of us do that to a certain degree, and it's one of the things that makes the game most interesting to me. When time allows me to follow the game-day threads, I am looking forward to see which of the esteemed posters question Gardy's moves before the outcome has been realized. Will be interesting to see which posters sit on their hands until it clearly becomes evident things didn't work out as planned and then bash the manager.

  18. #18
    I'd like for him to throw every player under-the-bus when they make a mistake, not just the ones that are either rookies or not one of his boys. It seemed like- if you listened to soundbytes of him complaining about the players he had- 2011 was all Danny Valencia's fault. I can't recall him saying anything about the $180-million catcher not being able to catch, or the other 3 catchers not even hitting their weights. Pavano didn't get mentioned once for having an ERA north of 5; and Nathan and Capps were both "getting at it." But Valencia's slow-footed-to-the-right range most have cost us 30 wins last year.

  19. #19
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    I'm surprised no one has talked about his pen management... leave your guy out there for an inning or two, not to throw 5 pitches to 1 batter. The pen would be much better off for that long term.

  20. #20
    Brain transplant.

    Seriously, I'm not sure whether it would lineup-by-position (i.e. weak hitters in the most important [#2] slot in the order) or PREDICTABLE early [1st inning] sac bunting.

    Mikewantswins analysis of the sac bunt is wrong inasmuch as there's a difference between run expectation in PAs in which a sac bunt is attempted and run expectation in PAs in which a sac bunt "succeeds". (It doesn't always go down in the former case like it does in the latter, given errors, base hits, hits when the bunt is taken off with 2 strikes, etc.)

    But with Gardenhire, he's so by-the-numbers other teams clearly expect the bunt, position (or at least mentally dispose) their infielders accordingly and thereby make most of his sac bunts attempts far worse than an "average" sac attempt. If he'd change it up, bunt a LOT less for a while (to change expectations), then be less predictable (including crucially: be willing to take a sacrifice OFF and hit away in a 1-0 count, put it back after it goes 1-1, encourage tweener bunts that could lead to base hits when the bunters is good/fast etc.) he'd be a much improved, less frustrating in-game manager for it.

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