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Thread: The 2012 "Complain About Gardy" Thread

  1. #21
    Well, since it's my question, I suppose I should add my 2Ę.

    Generally, I like Gardy and how he manages. However, if I were to ask him to change something, I'd ask that he'd forget about "pitcher wins." It bugs me when he pulls a starting pitcher in the 6th inning as soon as a go-ahead run gets to the plate, seemingly with the mindset of "you might not win this game, but now you won't lose it." Let him clean up his own mess, and pull him when he really begins to stink.

    Although, this issue is pretty much baseball-wide. I'd still like to see Gardy buck this tradition.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatic Jack View Post
    Stop babying your players! Stop being intimidated by teams in the AL East and West! Career record vs Yankees is 20-65! He has set the organization back 10 years. Completely responsible for last years debacle. He has had the most talented players in Twins history and can't even win ONE playoff game Take your pick.
    Okay, so you've stated you're anti-Gardy, and you've listed some reasons why. Now I'm curious to see who you'd rather have manage this club and your reasons why.

  3. #23
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    My least favorite thing in baseball... Don't play to pad your closer's save numbers. Outside of a being a good talking stat, it's pretty hard to claim that getting only 3 outs with a 3-run lead somehow proves you "saved" the game. I swear, anybody could save 35 games for the Twins the way he manages. Last year notwithstanding due to everyone being injured. It's infected all of baseball at this point, but wouldn't it be nice to see him put in his closer (theoretically his best relief pitcher, we'll see if that's the case) in the 8th inning to face the other teams 2-4 hitters with a 1-run lead, and let someone else worry about the ninth when the weaker hitters are coming to bat?

  4. #24
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    Stop using the definition of a "save" as the rule for putting in your closer. There are extremely good offensive teams I would want our closer in when we have a 4-5 run lead and really crappy teams where we don't need to burn them when we have a 2-3 run lead.

  5. #25
    Two things I would ask Gardy to reconsider: 100 pitch limit and the Tart Cherry Concentrate commercials.

  6. #26
    I think the actual effect any manager has on W/L's is so freaking miniscule that the Twins would win or lose the same amount of games if it were Gardy, Connie Mack, Earl Weaver or Trey Hillman. The one thing I'd change, as mentioned above, is a nearly universal problem and that's pitching to the save rule. Use your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. It's so simple it's like telling someone not to open their doors and windows when you turn on you heat in the winter but managers just don't get it.

  7. #27
    how can someone defend the loon that is gardenchoke? he hasn't won a playoff serious in over a decade can't manage a bullpen to save his fatass and cherishes his hard working scrappy players that always suck. he's a joke of a manager and needs to be gone of this club this year

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okobojicat View Post
    Actually a lot of stat guys (like myself) will acknowledge that you only have to win by one. But by giving outs away (such as bunting) you reduce your chances of scoring 1 run or 3 runs.

    Let's say you're down 1 run in the bottom of the 6th inning. 1 out, guy on first. Parmalee is up. Do you bunt? How about Span or Revere? No. Moving the guy to 2nd base with 2-outs reduces your chances of scoring 1 run, 2 runs, or any amount of runs. Basically, in order to regularly justify bunting, you must have someone that is offensively inept as Butera. Otherwise, it almost never makes sense.
    To be fair, I really doubt Gardenhire has chosen to sac bunt very often with one out. I would limit bunting to almost only those situations where there is nobody out and a guy on second or a guy on second and first. And the suicide squeeze sometimes.

  9. #29
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCLA_YANKEE_COLA View Post
    Use your best relievers in the highest leverage situations. It's so simple it's like telling someone not to open their doors and windows when you turn on you heat in the winter but managers just don't get it.
    So simple that dozens--hundreds even--of major league managers can't learn to manage the bullpen to your satisfaction.

    One might draw the conclusion that it's not quite so simple as you think from the comfort of your living room chair.

  10. #30
    From an "x's and o's" standpoint, from the time the lineup card is written until the end of the game, there isnt probably 2 wins difference between the decisions the AL manager of the year makes and what the worst record manager in rookie ball makes. All baseball guys make the same decisions and most of them if not meaningless are all but.

    Take out pitching changes and every other in-game decision an AL manager makes is basically window dressing.

    I put baseball managers in the same category as college football coaches. Meaning, they are basically recruiters and motivators mostly.

    Saying that, I'd suspect Gardy is probably a relatively good motivator given his career record. Which is a good thing because his batting orders and line-up cards are probably the single biggest weak point he has and has probably cost him at least one division title.

    So most annoying thing. Someone needs to tell Gardy that he doesnt have to bat a speedy outfielder or a middle fielder 1 or 2. There is no rule in baseball that would prevent him from batting someone like....say a catcher...with a really high OBP in the number 2 slot and then just leave him there all season long. Number 2 most annoying He is obsessed with the potential for an opposing platoon advantage when he sets his batting order but all but oblivious when he actually writes the line-up card

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BHtwins View Post
    From an "x's and o's" standpoint, from the time the lineup card is written until the end of the game, there isnt probably 2 wins difference between the decisions the AL manager of the year makes and what the worst record manager in rookie ball makes. All baseball guys make the same decisions and most of them if not meaningless are all but. Take out pitching changes and every other in-game decision an AL manager makes is basically window dressing.
    You must not pay attention to Jim Leyland's or Ozzie Guillen's bonehead moves. I've attended games that Guillen has lost for the Sox.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by powrwrap View Post
    You must not pay attention to Jim Leyland's or Ozzie Guillen's bonehead moves. I've attended games that Guillen has lost for the Sox.
    and at the end of 162 games sans pitching moves i doubt it made 2 games one way or the other in the final season outcome. Almost all decisions whether its to bunt, or pinch hit or steal or hit and run are dumb or meaningless or both. You make a boneheaded decision and you lose a game you woulda lost anyway. You make a crazy like a fox move and win a game you probably woulda won anyway. Thats the reality.

  13. #33
    Good call luckylager. The 100 pitch limit IS a great thing to bring up. Depending on how his performance in 2011 ended up, Gardenhire was poised to be around #2 ALL-TIME in terms of "quickest hooks" on his starting pitcher among managers with more than 10 seasons (compared to contemporaries). He's a slave to the pitch count to the point of comedy. The dude credited with bringing them into vogue points to ironclad pitch count rules like Gardenhire's as pretty much the opposite of what he recommended when he did the research that initially prompted clubs to pay some attention to pitch counts.

    While it's eminently hateable that he's also a slave to the save rule, given that every other manager in baseball is just as bad it doesn't make me hate him nearly as much as the bunting-by-numbers, lineup-by-positions and pitch count do.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BHtwins View Post
    and at the end of 162 games sans pitching moves i doubt it made 2 games one way or the other in the final season outcome. Almost all decisions whether its to bunt, or pinch hit or steal or hit and run are dumb or meaningless or both. You make a boneheaded decision and you lose a game you woulda lost anyway. You make a crazy like a fox move and win a game you probably woulda won anyway. Thats the reality.
    So when Joe Maddon had Dan Johnson--9 for 90 that year--pinch hit against the Yankees in the bottom of the ninth last Sep 29th, with 2 outs, that was a game the Rays woulda won anyway?

    Your assertion that any bunt, pinch hit, steal, or hit and run are dumb and meaningless is breathtaking. I take it you don't pay too much attention to the strategy of baseball.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  15. #35
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I think he tends to get thrown out a little too often. I don't like how he tends to be tougher on younger (or certain) players.


    Regarding the bunting thing... Gardy hates sac-bunting early in games. Remember when Orlando Hudson came over and wanted to sac bunt in the first inning if Span got on base? Gardy pretty much said, "This is the AL. We don't do that here."

    I also believe fully that a manager cannot always go by the book... I like the Gardy occasionally thinks outside the box. You have to if you ever want the element of surprise. So, it's rare that I'll blame a manager for much. Players play.

  16. #36
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powrwrap View Post
    So when Joe Maddon had Dan Johnson--9 for 90 that year--pinch hit against the Yankees in the bottom of the ninth last Sep 29th, with 2 outs, that was a game the Rays woulda won anyway?
    I generally agree that the manager doesn't have a huge impact on 98% of games... but powrwrap, your example is why this game is great, and my point about a manager going against the book at times. pinch-hitting Johnson there... if Gardy did that, he'd get ripped because most times, it's not going to work. Johnson (the player) came through, and Maddon looks like a genius. (Don't get me wrong, I think that Maddon is one of the top managers in baseball.)

  17. #37
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    Gardy is a very good manager

    I've never seen a manager do so much with so little, yet still get bashed incessantly by the fan base for not doing more.

    Yes, I get it, the lack of postseason success is frustrating. But the key ingredient to winning in October is starting pitching. When you're forced to trot out the likes of Boof Bonser and Brian Duensing as playoff starters, your chances of success are pretty slim. Take your top run producer out of the lineup a la Morneau in '09 and '10, and you can pretty much forget it.

    Look at Bruce Bochy's track record before winning the Series with the Giants. Not very impressive, is it? Did he finally figure it out after a decade-and-a-half? Or do ya think maybe having a staff with Lincecum and a few other guys who would have be aces on a lot of teams made a difference?

    6 division titles in 9 years is no small feat, folks. Especially considering the low payroll and injury problems he had to deal with for a lot of those years. Twins fans always point to Kelly, but though he won 2 rings, the team was not consistently competitive under him. He managed the Twins for 15 full seasons. They finished higher than 4th in the division in only 5 of them. His career winning percentage? .478.

    Now Gardy, like many of his players, had a down year last year and needs to bounce back. I, for one, hope and think that he can. We'll see starting Friday - bring it on!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by powrwrap View Post
    So when Joe Maddon had Dan Johnson--9 for 90 that year--pinch hit against the Yankees in the bottom of the ninth last Sep 29th, with 2 outs, that was a game the Rays woulda won anyway?

    .
    Nope. Thats not what Im saying at all. I'm saying it was dumb luck not managerial prowess. I dont understand the whole idea that baseball "strategy" is sacred.

    What I am saying is that true game-changing managerial opportunities dont happen that often and the difference between making a good decision, a bad decision, a lucky decision or doing nothing at all is the difference between 2 games over .500 or 2 games under .500 at the end of the year. I would guess thats at the extremes.

  19. #39
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    Like to see him go. That abysmal 20-65 record against the Yanks, and the woeful playoff success with very talented teams is just too much. Tom Kelly, bless his hard heart could manage. Gardenhire can't.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by BHtwins View Post
    What I am saying is that true game-changing managerial opportunities dont happen that often and the difference between making a good decision, a bad decision, a lucky decision or doing nothing at all is the difference between 2 games over .500 or 2 games under .500 at the end of the year. I would guess thats at the extremes.
    A well timed hit-and-run can win a game and happens many times during the season. Yes, players have to execute, but that is not luck. I dispute your assertion that game-changing managerial decisions amount to 2 games a year. Simply repositioning the defense for particular batters and calling pitches to augment that defense changes the outcomes of games. Intentionally walking a batter and then getting a subsequent double play is good managing in my book. I guess you would call that lucky. I think you are poo-poohing (or aren't aware) of a whole lot of stuff going on behind the scenes.
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

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