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Thread: Eduardo Escobar Should Start at Short

  1. #21
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    Pedro is actually putting up better offensive numbers than expected. I think he's in the top five for ops and avg amongst AL SS. Pretty good for your #9 guy.

    Personally, I still think Escobar is a better player, but as others have pointed out he's way more useful in the bench than Pedro. Hell, you can start Escobar every day at a different position.

  2. #22
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    Obviously very small sample size, but I am a bit encouraged by Florimon taking a few walks -- that seemed to be a minor advantage from his minor league performance, as compared to Escobar -- and both players have limited their strikeouts well thus far. Hopefully those trends can continue even as their batting averages inevitably fall.

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spideyo View Post
    Pedro is actually putting up better offensive numbers than expected. I think he's in the top five for ops and avg amongst AL SS. Pretty good for your #9 guy.

    Personally, I still think Escobar is a better player, but as others have pointed out he's way more useful in the bench than Pedro. Hell, you can start Escobar every day at a different position.
    If Escobar is a better player (and I'm not saying he is, I don't know), then he should be starting over Florimon. Putting a better player into a bench role because he's "more versatile" is just plain wrong. First, if Florimon is able to play SS, I'm sure he could handle 2nd and probably 3rd on a part time basis. If not, when the bench player (Florimon in this case) is going to be in the lineup, if he absolutely can't play another position, put him at SS and move Escobar to whatever position is getting a day off. The "better player" needs to be in the lineup every day, not the other way around.

  4. #24
    If we didn't have Carroll, I would say Escobar is valuable as the backup, getting into partial games or subbing out at 2B and SS. So, let's get rid of Carroll, of play Escobar fulltime at shortstop. I would rather see Olmeda or anyone as another bench bat backup than Carroll, at the moment, unless we deep-six Florimon. I don't see Florimon as longterm Twin. i see Escoabr being a temp (like Florimon is, too) but hanging aorund for years ala Hocking and Reboulet as a backup who can also start multiple positions (as wella s be THAT third catcher!).
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  5. #25
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The "better player" needs to be in the lineup every day, not the other way around.
    Indeed, there's nothing stopping a player from simultaneously being the better starter AND the versatile utility guy at the same time. If there were, Ben Zobrist would have spent the bulk of the last 4+ years rotting on the bench rather than being one of the more valuable players in the game.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Indeed, there's nothing stopping a player from simultaneously being the better starter AND the versatile utility guy at the same time. If there were, Ben Zobrist would have spent the bulk of the last 4+ years rotting on the bench rather than being one of the more valuable players in the game.
    Don't go around surreptitiously invoking the Maddon Rules in these here parts- that's bound to rile up some of the local faithful...

  7. #27
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Don't go around surreptitiously invoking the Maddon Rules in these here parts- that's bound to rile up some of the local faithful...
    Don't give John any ideas, we wouldn't want to find it tacked onto the TD bylaws.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    If you break it down with that small sample:

    Escobar>Florimon>Dozier>Carroll.

    So both Escobar and Florimon should start and Dozier (and Carroll) should sit, according to that logic.

    Methinks that it is a bit too early to pull any triggers either way.
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  9. #29
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    But he tracked 1-2 years ahead of Florimon in the minors, hitting AAA at age 22
    This is the key, IMO. It's not simply that he's younger, but if you compare the two players' records age-by-age, with the exception of his putrid 2012 season Escobar outperformed Florimon, either with better performance at a similar league level or by putting up similar numbers in a higher league level. I'm not a big fan of simply adding up thousands of minor league at bats, but when a pattern like this is there it shows up in the raw totals too. Now, if you're unwilling to write off 2012 for Escobar, the two may seem similar, and maybe 2012 shouldn't be ignored. But my money (all $0 of it, for you betting folks) is on Escobar having the more solid career. I'm still not convinced he's better than a utility guy, but I believe Florimon will be out of baseball by 2015; I'd love it if Pedro's good start this season proves me wrong..

  10. #30
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    You guys are really frustrating. Arguing that one guy is significantly better than the other is like putting lipstick on a pig. It's nice that both are off the hot starts but both of them are utility infielders at best. It really doesn't matter imo if Escobar is 2 yrs younger since he has put up a completely unimpressive .266/.305/.353/.658 slash line through the minors with zero improvement as he moved up. tbh I will be happy if either of these guys hit better than .600 OPS at the MLB level.

    At least Dozier has a little potential since he hit .779 OPS through the minors although he was a 4 year college player so he was older than Florimon/Escobar.

  11. #31
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Arguing that one guy is significantly better than the other
    They are who we have right now. You can discuss something else, in a different thread than one with Escobar's name in the title, if you want.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    They are who we have right now. You can discuss something else, in a different thread than one with Escobar's name in the title, if you want.
    The main argument for Escobar is that he's a whopping 2 yrs younger and that allows for more potential projection for his hitting. I disagree. When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older. If he had been showing some gradual improvement along the way then perhaps but that's not true either.

  13. #33
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older.
    You're right. Hitters improve after age 25, when Florimon hit AAA, just as much as after age 22, which is when Escobar was putting up those numbers in AAA.

  14. #34
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    I'll go with Escobar too. Ryan sure took some grief for the Liriano trade, but it's looking better everyday.

  15. #35
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    The main argument for Escobar is that he's a whopping 2 yrs younger and that allows for more potential projection for his hitting. I disagree. When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older. If he had been showing some gradual improvement along the way then perhaps but that's not true either.
    1. Most people have said they expect very little from either player.

    2. There IS a difference between OPSing .650 at AA as a 24 year old and OPSing .650 at AA as a 21 year old.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    If Escobar is a better player (and I'm not saying he is, I don't know), then he should be starting over Florimon. Putting a better player into a bench role because he's "more versatile" is just plain wrong.
    I understand your point, but the magnitude of the difference also matters. I would guess that even folks who prefer Escobar would have to admit the difference is pretty darn slight right now. Might as well leave the exclusive SS at SS, and the more versatile one as the primary utility man for now.

  17. #37
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    I already said I want Escobar starting, what do you want from me Brock :-)
    An "Eduardo Escobar Best Friends Forever" tattoo across your back.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    2. There IS a difference between OPSing .650 at AA as a 24 year old and OPSing .650 at AA as a 21 year old.
    Actually, Florimon OPSed .740 at AA as a 24 year old, versus Escobar's .670 OPS at AA as a 21 year old (and their league OPSes were roughly the same). That complicates the equation a bit.

    Also as a 21 year old, Escobar OPSed .730 at high-A. The year before, Florimon OPSed .760 in the same league at age 22.

    Interesting that Florimon was an epically awful hitter at ages 20-21 at low-A. Given that, it's kind of impressive that he's become as good of a hitter as he has.

    Defense is really what's going to determine their respective careers, but it will be interesting if their offensive profiles diverge much at the MLB level. As I mentioned before, Florimon seems to have a slight edge in plate discipline right now, which could help keep his offense at the minimal acceptable level for MLB.

  19. #39
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Actually, Florimon OPSed .740 at AA as a 24 year old, versus Escobar's .670 OPS at AA as a 21 year old (and their league OPSes were roughly the same). That complicates the equation a bit.

    Also as a 21 year old, Escobar OPSed .730 at high-A. The year before, Florimon OPSed .760 in the same league at age 22.

    Interesting that Florimon was an epically awful hitter at ages 20-21 at low-A. Given that, it's kind of impressive that he's become as good of a hitter as he has.

    Defense is really what's going to determine their respective careers, but it will be interesting if their offensive profiles diverge much at the MLB level. As I mentioned before, Florimon seems to have a slight edge in plate discipline right now, which could help keep his offense at the minimal acceptable level for MLB.
    Ah, fair points. I was looking at Florimon's aggregate 2012 numbers and not his individual line at AA the previous year (I still find it odd that BB-Ref lists aggregate numbers BEFORE their individual numbers).

  20. #40
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    To me, Escobar has looked like the better defender thus far, and that's a lot more meaningful to me than their inflated early hitting lines. With a pitching staff that will create plenty of GB opportunities, I'll take the sure-handed guy who you can trust to convert anything hit in his area. I don't necesarily think it's time to cut bait on Florimon yet (though I'd start feeding Escobar semi-regular starts, as Gardy is doing) but I also think the leash should be very, very short. He's done nothing to earn a long one.

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