02-24-2013, 12:16 PM #1
Article: How MLB Teams Rebuild (Part 1)
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=...are-rebuilding
02-24-2013, 12:55 PM #2
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I agree, the Twins really should have committed to a rebuild. Yes, it's a bit embarrassing for it to happen just after moving into a new ballpark, but when the current group isn't getting it done, you've got to change it.
The most frustrating thing about the Twins keeping Willingham and Morneau for this season is that it feels like those decisions were made in order to keep drawing fans to the ballpark rather than to improve the team in the long run.
Also, I don't know if the Twins are in denial or think that they can contend for the playoffs with the right breaks, but it really does not feel like this will be a good team this year. Nevertheless, that hasn't stopped St. Peter and Ryan from saying that this team will compete in 2013, when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Yes, the starting pitching looks like it will be better this year, but that doesn't mean that it will be good. The offense last year was middling and it's arguably worse this year with the loss of Span and no improvements made to the middle infield.
I will still watch this team, and will Hicks, Arcia, etc. on the way it should be an entertaining team, but I don't have my hopes up this season.
02-24-2013, 01:26 PM #3
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Last point, The Twins claimed they needed a new stadium in order to generate adequate revenue to compete in MLB. But "The Blow it all up" option claims otherwise.
02-24-2013, 02:20 PM #4
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So teams that are on the bottom have not the same top 5 fWAR players. So what. What did they get in return? Were the players simply let go? Were good trades made and the players the core for the future?
02-24-2013, 02:28 PM #5
Some analysis of where the players were moved and for what would probably help your cause.
That said, I think the Twins have to think long term. They have some potentially valuable pieces that, yes, are fan favorites and play the game the "Twins Way" and all that other stuff, but are aging with injury risk circling them like vultures. If they can get value they have to be able to move them.
I guess I've always found this team's unwillingness to trade assets so strange when they almost never have had an issue letting players walk as FA.
02-24-2013, 03:29 PM #6
I wasn't necessarily looking at the results from these potential rebuilds, but more the methods being employed. We won't have results for at least a couple years.
I don't think there are any conclusions that can be drawn from the charts, I just thought the extra data was worth including.
02-24-2013, 07:50 PM #7
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02-24-2013, 07:58 PM #8
If the Twins tried to start the season with a ****ing 23 million dollar payroll Minnesotans should flip ****. When is the last time that team had success? Why the **** would you model a rebuild after 2 completely terrible franchises? AAAahhhhhh. No.Do or do not. There is no try.
02-24-2013, 08:05 PM #9
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But it does raise an issue that I'd like to touch on. When we talk about "rebuilding," too often the focus is on the destructive part, rather than the constructive part. Any destructive act is deemed a step forward, when it's almost always a step backwards, along with the possibility of a step forward. The Astros are praised by some for their destructive actions, but as this story points out, that's not really the job. If their new farm system develops the way they hope (and the way several publications rank them) then it can be evaluated as a success. But my impression is that the Astros are a lot further away from that than others.
That's also where the argument about Morneau and Willingham fails to find common ground. One side can assume that whatever is returned for them will be awesome. One side can assume that whatever is returned for them will be crummy.
02-24-2013, 08:52 PM #10
02-24-2013, 11:17 PM #11Do or do not. There is no try.
02-24-2013, 11:37 PM #12
02-25-2013, 01:18 PM #13
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This is an interesting piece and it's one of the things that should be the focus of discussion by Twins fans this season.
I think there's a real danger in constantly flipping productive veterans for prospects until "the next wave hits" or whatever. Which is why I'm usually opposed to reflexive idea of dumping Willingham/Morneau/Burton/etc for whatever we can get. When the prospects arrive at the MLB level it's a) not usually all at once, and b) there will be some bumps in the road. Having veteran players you can count on is important too. Having your fan base not completely crater isn't bad either.
I like rebuilding "destruction" when it dumps overvalued & underperforming players, when it brings in value prospects in return, and/or when it clears a position for a younger player who has nothing left to prove in the minors. I don't care for it when it flips a guy who is playing well for a C prospect.
02-25-2013, 02:09 PM #14
From a PR perspective a rebuild is the last thing you want to do when you are moving into a new ballpark, but ultimately its the right thing to do for the health of the franchise long term.
Target Field gives the Twins a better foundation to build upon organizationally, and will provide better revenues even when the team is not as competitive.
Willingham and Morneau were kept last year to make sure they can keep some butts in the seats for the first half of the season. If you trade those guys last deadline or in the offseason you are throwing up the white flag on 2013 publicly and open yourself up to at least an extra 3-4 months of unnecessary bad PR.
This squad is still probably 3-4 years out from being good enough to even sniff the ALCS, so I don't think Morneau and Willingham are apart of this team's long term plans. If Willingham repeats last years performance and Morneau rebounds well I expect them to both be moved at the deadline to contenders.
A lot of the divisional races for big spending clubs are going to be tight, and that could definitely drive up values of Willingham and Morneau substantially. If the A's come out hot in the AL West you can bet Texas/Anaheim will make trades to close the gap. The Dodgers will probably want to make moves to start winning too, they can't stand the Giants doing well down in Chavez Ravine. Plus the big money clubs in the AL/NL East will be in full on arms race mode this year.
The only real non-competitive divisional race this year will probably be the AL Central, and we probably wouldn't be able to pull of a blockbuster trade in division anyway. I like the Twin's chances of getting a good haul from some deadline trades, and hopefully by spring ball 2014 the organization will be fielding a young potent lineup that is only getting better.
02-25-2013, 02:35 PM #15Do or do not. There is no try.
02-25-2013, 02:38 PM #16
I agree fully with kryptik and jmlease1. I kind of like the idea of stockpiling prospects until the next wave hits, then using excess prospects to make a trade for a big name. Imagine if the 2006-08 Twins had traded some prospects for an established ace? With a good farm system, this becomes a viable strategy.
Also, Mike Ferrin wrote a really interesting piece about rebuilding at BP today (might require membership): Grapefruit League Journal: Minnesota Twins
Basically, he makes the point that the key difference between the rebuilding Twins teams of the late 90s and this rebuilding team is available money, due to having Target Field, TV money, etc. The Twins can sign free agents and trade for more expensive players now, compared with then. This seems to indicate that a rebuild could be done quicker.
Also, Jeremy Nygaard wrote a really good piece for TD about potentially trading Willingham: Could I... trade Willingham. He makes good points on both sides and the discussion that stemmed from his piece is really good too. I like that the Twins held on to Willingham and Morneau. They will help keep the fan base interested. Plus, they can always be traded later, so long as the Twins do not wait until they become free agents.
Last edited by Brad Swanson; 02-25-2013 at 02:41 PM.
02-25-2013, 03:49 PM #17
Our pitching staff last year was last in strikeouts, 3rd to last in ERA, 2nd to last in opp. BA. Even with the offseason trades/acquisitions this team is not close to competing in 2014.
I see the progression for the Twins like this:
2013: ~15 games or so under .500 at the all-star break, unload Morneau/Willingham/Carroll and start plugging in the new guys. Finish at least ~20 games under .500, maybe 30 under the division winner. More good draft picks to shore up any positional needs for the future.
2014: Youth movement in high gear, team breaks 70 win mark to avoid the dreaded 90 loss season. I think they show great improvement in the 2nd half of the season which leads to an uptick in excitement/attendance. The team of the future is coming into focus.
2015: Team floats around .500 the whole season, finishing on the north side of 81 wins. They don't make a serious run for the division title but they aren't "out" of it through most of the season.
2016: This team makes waves, 92 or so wins as the pitchers start coming into their own. Lower payroll allows TR to go out and address any glaring needs to make this team a WS contender beyond that.
02-25-2013, 08:09 PM #18
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I don't understand why there is preference that the Twins go into complete firesale mode. The players in question still have trade value and I think they will be traded during the season.
One critical step in rebuilding is to open up starting spots for prospects. The Twins did exactly that with their two trades this winter. Perhaps you could make a case that they also needed to open up a space this winter for Arcia but that would also require the Twins to start 3 prospects in the OF with very little depth if one of them stumbles.
As of right now there aren't any prospects that are truly blocked. Someone might say Gibson but as a realist there is no way that the Twins rotation survives to July w/o losing one pitcher due to ineffectiveness or injury. The same is true for Arcia.
I also find any criticism of the Indians moves overblown. Which good prospects are blocked by Swisher or Bourn? The Indians managed to add a couple of good players at positions where they were extremely weak MLB and MiLB. it's likely that these moves can result in a future trade to add more young talent to the Indians and these players only cost money. At the end of the day they added talent to org and aren't blocking decent prospects.
Overall I think the Twins view 2013 as a wait season. they didn't add anything significant in FA or even attempt to and they continued to stockpile prospects. I don't think the Twins will do a burn it to the ground rebuild and I don't think they should but I think we'll continue to see a veteran traded here and there.
02-25-2013, 10:00 PM #19
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Morneau and Willingham were not kept to "put butts in seats". They were kept for value reasons. In Morneau's case, there way too many question marks in July. Those question marks got largely cleaned up in Aug/Sept, and a healthy/productive spring and early summer will make Morneau and the 7M he would cost a very coveted asset come July. Willingham is a similar except that he had 2.5 years on that contract last year, and while it was a reasonable price, his injury history, the fact that he could have been had by anyone that offseason, and the longer committment likely scared off some teams. Willingham (assuming he stays healthy) will also be valuable come July... moreso than last season.
I suspect both will be shopped in July for prospects that will help the 2014 wave... I'm hoping for middle infielders and pitchers. That's what the Twins desparately need.
02-25-2013, 11:45 PM #20
In my opinion, the Twins are in a pretty good situation to at least compete in 2014 and maybe flirt with .500 with some breaks this season. They don't have any horrible contracts, they have talent spread through the minor leagues, they have talent on the MLB roster, they have money to spend on a FA.... they can win again in 2014. I'm pissed about JR not even making an attempt at the MI, but you couldn't ask for a much better place to rebuild... now. I'm saying this with the additions of Maysie and Myersie. Without them the future is less clear. They still need to hit on #4 in June, but at least there is hope for the near future now.
Yes, the MI is in distress right now. Yes, something has to be done to fix it. And yes, the Twins can win despite this. Luckily, the Twins have guys that can at least field the position now, which is more than they could say a few years back. I expect Santana to be close by the end of the year and maybe sooner with injuries/ineptitude. I feel like many are writing Dozier off right now. I only expect him to be a stop-gap until (crosses fingers) Rosario comes up and takes it over. Even then he should still have value as a utility guy that can hit a little bit. Never thought seeing Punto on the roster would be an upgrade... man I hated that guy. Point is, its one thing to be pissed about the Twins not caring enough to sign quality guys for the 2013 team, but its another to suggest they are 3-4 years away from contending.
One last thing for the blow-it-up crowd. This rarely works. Even the best prospects fail. When you look at trades like the Santana trade... just makes you sick. Standing pat is sometimes the best option. I almost guarantee JR wouldn't have made that trade and just let Santana walk. Prospects are a gamble, regardless of how highly touted they are... you just never know.Do or do not. There is no try.