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Thread: Article: Big Year for the Manager

  1. #1
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Article: Big Year for the Manager


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    Senior Member Triple-A Gernzy's Avatar
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    Great article Seth. Hopefully the people who want Gardy gone right now will read this and realize there is alot more to it then they think.

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    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    I guess the manager wins games but the players, umpires, injuries, ______ fill in the excuse lose the games?
    No Gardy isn't 100% at fault but at some point it's time to move on. 10-12 years with one team is a long time, turn the page and start fresh, imo. He'll get another job.

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    For several years Seth wrote the team no longer does the little things well. Now that people are suggesting Gardenhire accountable for that, it is somehow not the coaches responsibility? Who on the roster the last few years has really grown as a player under this staff? When have they over achieved lately?

    Gardy clearly is a big part of the success. But if he gets credit when they do well, he needs to get blame when they do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Who on the roster the last few years has really grown as a player under this staff? When have they over achieved lately?
    Several Twins last year had career years. Revere ended up valuable enough that they got a starting pitcher and a prospect for him. Span developed under Gardenhire. Plouffe may have found a spot. The position players added via free agency last year did well. Diamond, DeVries and Deduno all had career years last year. Burton, Perkins and Fien all saw improvement last year. If Casilla turns it around for more than a year in Baltimore you can say it was Gardenhire's fault, but I don't know if that will happen.

  6. #6
    Anybody remember Bill Smith. Trading away Bartlett and JJ Hardy from an organization that can't develop middle infielders. Yes, I know,, Garza, and the Santana giveaway. And my favorite, Ramos for Matt Capps. I love watching Butera. at bats, they give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.I think the Twins should make David Kahn the GM when Ryan retires. I'm sure Gardy's slashed billys tires already.

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I would say that managers get too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when a team loses. In reality, if another manager had the exact same roster that they've had the last two years, and all the same other issues, how many more games would the Twins have won. Likewise, if there was another manager through the good years, would they really have won (or lost) any more games? It definitely goes both ways.

    I've read people say that they think that the Twins have gotten "stale" in recent years... and I guess I don't know what to think about that comment. Will a new voice make the players better and hence not look stale? Would you hire a manager who yells more than Gardenhire? (Cuz he does quite a bit) Or would you want a manager that is more laid back and quiet? I guess maybe that's part of my question... what type of manager would you want to come in here? And, why would that make the Twins successful right away?

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    If managers have so little impact, Seth, why do you care who the manager is? Why are they paid as much money as they are?
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #9
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Several Twins last year had career years. Revere ended up valuable enough that they got a starting pitcher and a prospect for him. Span developed under Gardenhire. Plouffe may have found a spot. The position players added via free agency last year did well. Diamond, DeVries and Deduno all had career years last year. Burton, Perkins and Fien all saw improvement last year. If Casilla turns it around for more than a year in Baltimore you can say it was Gardenhire's fault, but I don't know if that will happen.
    Good list, and obviously there have been many more over the years as well. And, I'm sure the opposite can be said.

    I like Gardy. I think he's done a terrific job as the Twins manager. I'm not against them going a different direction, but I would caution those that think that is the answer to all the questions, I think they'd be disappointed. I certainly haven't agreed with everything Gardy has done during his years. But, my main point is that I don't think it's fair, or right, to solely judge his managerial abilities and whether or not he should retain his job by looking at wins and losses. So, that's my question, what are those factors for others that should determine it?

    MWW makes a good note that they haven't done a lot of the little things well, but I would also say that I don't think they practice them any less than they did when TK was around, so I don't know what the reasoning is.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Is it a fact that the Twins have not done the little things well?

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If managers have so little impact, Seth, why do you care who the manager is? Why are they paid as much money as they are?
    Another fair point, but obvously the manager is a part of every team, and they are paid well... that said, 1st year managers generally make less than league minimum, and even Gardy making a couple million is not that big compared to the players who have more than 3-5 years of experience.

  12. #12
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Is it a fact that the Twins have not done the little things well?
    Someone would have to study that and even determine what that means... their 'little' guys haven't bunted well. They don't always run the bases real well. Defense has been down the last several years, but that's certainly the players... So, I dont know if it's true or not.

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    To be clear, i don't think replacing Gardy is the one, sole, answer to the problems of this team. To be clear, I think Ryan has some great strengths. I would never argue they were not key contributors and largetly the architects of the sucess of the first decade of this century. I am arguing that every organization eventualyl replaces even its great leaders, and the best organizations don't wait too long to do so.

    I think the time is right on Gardy because I think this team will be largely rebuilt from the ground up over the next few years. That is a good time to bring in a new leader, to grow with the new team.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gernzy View Post
    Great article Seth. Hopefully the people who want Gardy gone right now will read this and realize there is alot more to it then they think.
    I've wanted Gardy gone since 2007.

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    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    What has to happen on the field before it is time to make a change? We aren't talking about a guy that has won multiple world series titles. This isn't a HOF manager that has a great post season record of success. It's a manager that has won in a mostly poor division, and hasn't won a post season game since 2004.

    Sometimes that old chair or sweatshirt just has to go and start new!

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    It should be sink or swim. Either he makes this roster competitive from the very beginning of this season or he's gone.

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    There's a school of thought (started in the NFL, but I can't recall which coach said it) that after a 10 years or so you need to move on because the players start to tune you out. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it's a fair concern.

    I would judge Gardy this season on a few factors, and winning isn't really one of them.

    1. Does the team quit on him at any point in the season? If they do, then it's probably time to make a change.

    2. Does Gardenhire embrace anything new this season to try and find success for this team or does he only run out the same bag of tricks? Managers need to grow too. I don't expect him to suddenly become a different guy, but if he doesn't show any growth either, it's worth considering.

    3. How well does he work with the young players? This team will need to embrace the wave of talent coming up through the minors. If he's not able to work with and develop that talent, he's probably not going to be the right fit. This is admittedly a tough category to judge on; people will tend to evaluate it more on how well the young players perform, which as Seth points out isn't necessarily right.

    4. Does he lose the fans? Yep, Gardy gets judged this season on PR a bit. Look, he's one of the most recognizable faces of the organization, with a serious platform and connection to the fans. If he's not able to help keep the fans connected and convince them that this team has a future worth watching, than that's a real strike against him.

    All of these things are possible. I don't think any of them are unreasonable. The difficulty is none of them are easily quantifiable.

    Seth is right in that managers do get more credit than they probably deserve when the team wins and too much blame when the team loses, but at the same time a lot of the criticisms leveled at Gardy have been consistent through good times and bad and a lot of them are certainly fair. The reasoning that most other managers act the same way isn't a particularly good one for keeping someone around, especially when one of the keys to success is being better at things that others fail at.

    I think Terry Ryan has a lot of these things in mind, and that's why this season is a "prove it" year for Gardy. Ryan needs to see that this is the right guy for the future. Loyalty has kept him in place this long; a lot of places would have moved on already, to placate the fan base if nothing else.

  18. #18
    I am a Gardy fan and always have been. I think he has done a great job with a team that has not always been the most talented. Having said that--I agree with others--we are starting to build a new team around Hicks, Sano, Buxton, etc. I think after a dozen years it is time for a change--bring in a manager (Bruno??) to build this team.

    More important and Seth didnt address this--get rid of Anderson--we need a better pitching coach (Cuellar?).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jmlease1 View Post
    There's a school of thought (started in the NFL, but I can't recall which coach said it) that after a 10 years or so you need to move on because the players start to tune you out. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it's a fair concern.
    In general I agree with the comment--but not always the case--I know soccer (what the rest of the world calls football) is not a big sport here--but arguably the best manager in any team in any sport--Sir Alex Ferguson of Man. United--has been there 26 years and looks to win another title this season...

  20. #20
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post
    In general I agree with the comment--but not always the case--I know soccer (what the rest of the world calls football) is not a big sport here--but arguably the best manager in any team in any sport--Sir Alex Ferguson of Man. United--has been there 26 years and looks to win another title this season...
    And being the richest club in the sporting universe has nothing to do with that.

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