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Thread: Zulgad: Twins Have A Plan

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    I have to say I find it interesting to compare the mood on this site today with what I saw last fall. If I recall correctly, the majority of the posters were saying that next year (2013) doesn't matter and the front office shouldn't worry about trying to contend short-term, and instead should focus on contending in 2014 and 2015.

    Now, people are mad because, in their view, the front office isn't trying to put a quality product on the field this year and is looking ahead too much to 2014 and 2015.

    I'm not sure what to make of this.

  2. #22
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    Gee what i took from the article was, that the Vikings improved once they got a new general manager.....
    some thing to think about

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Curious that there was no mention of the large payroll drop and it being the reason most people believed this could be a try to compete year, as well as a rebuild year. He seems to place most of the emphasis for not being competitive in 2013 on the trading of Span and Revere as opposed to not bothering to try to spend any money on decent pitching and a little MI depth.

    The prediction for a "greatly" improved team by 2014 is drinking the Kool-Aid while wearing your rose coloured glasses. Just a poor article overall.

  4. #24
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    "Talk of building a staff around pitch to contact should be long gone." So many ways to respond: a) should have happened years ago; b)none of these guys have pitched for the Twins yet so we can't be sure of that; c) who will be managing the team when they all get to the Twins?; d) what's the backup plan if someone fails? As far as I'm concerned the only thing that can be said about PtoC is that it won't be stated as the Twins' philosophy anymore.

    "Starting pitching is the hardest thing to find and Ryan knows the best way to go about obtaining it isn't to dip into an expensive free-agent market." So many responses.
    A poorly written sentence. The writer starts to tell us Ryan knows the "best way", but doesn't--he simply claims that signing expensive free-agents isn't the "best way"--with nothing to support that conclusion. This off-season several inexpensive free-agents were signed, are we to infer that that is the best way? Or should Mackey (and Ryan) just state "we're blowing-off 2013 and hoping to lose enough games in order to select the guy in the 2014 Draft that will right this ship and get us going full speed ahead".

  5. #25
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    The Pirates have been rebuilding for what, 20+ years? The Twins have dug a seriously deep hole that will not be easy to climb out of. There is zero evidence they have a "plan," other maybe than praying none of their few pitching prospects get hurt.

    Indeed, their actions tend to indicate the exact opposite of a plan. Trading away a young outfielder, but holding onto Willingham? Writing off 2013 but overpaying Correia? The kool-aid drinkers will always be there, but the reality just isn't good.

  6. #26
    There was exactly 1 reason the Vikes made the playoffs. Adrian Peterson. The guy dominated enough games that they outlasted a couple other teams for that bottom playoff spot.
    This is something that every single MLB team can dream of now. Getting a chance to play the WC game in an integrated league will not require as many wins. Integrating the leagues like this will minimize the interleague effects, and suppress AL records a few games. The bottom wild card spot might even go to a team with 85 wins. Who knows? Sure that means a 22 game improvement for the Twins. When does that happen? Just about every single year, actually. Twice last year to two teams that had "no talent" at the beginning of the year.

    This is about the 'plan' though. The plan the Twins have to build for the future while having enough MLB players to get lucky in a down year, and buy at the deadline.

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    I have to say I find it interesting to compare the mood on this site today with what I saw last fall. If I recall correctly, the majority of the posters were saying that next year (2013) doesn't matter and the front office shouldn't worry about trying to contend short-term, and instead should focus on contending in 2014 and 2015.

    Now, people are mad because, in their view, the front office isn't trying to put a quality product on the field this year and is looking ahead too much to 2014 and 2015.

    I'm not sure what to make of this.
    Disagree. The mood was positive because JR made a few nice trades and had a lot of money to spend and make the team better. Problem is that he used it to sign a bottom feeding starting pitcher and nothing else despite cheap contracts being handed out to guys that would help this team. Everyone has a right to be upset he didn't do more to help the 2013 Twins... including the current players on the 25-man roster.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  8. #28
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    Baseball and football work very differently in terms of adding talent. The left tackle, safety and kicker all came through a draft that adds immediate talent. The corners you mentions all got torched in the playoffs. Those were added through free agency. Therein lies the problem of free agency in picking up what was discarded.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=...let's not forget that if either of these high minors arms struggles - or worse yet is injured - the hope that is being sold is going to look awfully silly. [/QUOTE]

    Awww, why do you gotta say that?

  10. #30
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    Ugh...... This myth that any free agency is a bad idea is so tired. How do you feel about Antoine Winfield, or CC sabbathia. Yea, some guys bust, so do draft picks. There is no one right channel for adding talent. Sano was essentially a free agent....how do you feel about him?

  11. #31
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    Indeed, their actions tend to indicate the exact opposite of a plan. Trading away a young outfielder, but holding onto Willingham?
    What do you think they were offered for Josh? No doubt less than they were offered for either Span or Revere, exactly because of their relative youth. If the plan was to restock the minors with higher-ceiling pitchers, using their oversupply of young outfielders coming up as the bait, the trades the Twins pulled the trigger on are consistent with that.

    Actually, keeping Willingham as part of the bridge to 2015 suits me fine - he's more valuable to the Twins than he would be to a contender, since on just about no other team would his 35 home runs be marketed as "the most since [Killebrew] in 1970" or whatever the exact mark of distinction is. The Twins lineup was already overpopulated with table-setters, and trading Willingham instead of Revere or Span would have accentuated it further.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Ugh...... This myth that any free agency is a bad idea is so tired. How do you feel about Antoine Winfield, or CC sabbathia. Yea, some guys bust, so do draft picks. There is no one right channel for adding talent. Sano was essentially a free agent....how do you feel about him?
    Signing free agent pitchers to long deals usually results in overpaying even for pretty good performance, and is usually a terrible deal for the team that does it. Win a world series or two on the strength of the sign and it works out. For every CC there is a Kevin Brown and Carl Pavano.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Signing free agent pitchers to long deals usually results in overpaying even for pretty good performance, and is usually a terrible deal for the team that does it. Win a world series or two on the strength of the sign and it works out. For every CC there is a Kevin Brown and Carl Pavano.
    I don't think that's what Mike and others are saying. You can help yourself short-term and possibly flip for long-term benefit on 1-2 year deals paying up for legit talent.

    Out of 34 SP FA signings in 2013 offseason:

    One or Two year deals: 31

    Three years or more: 3 (Greinke, Jackson, Guthrie)

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    It seems like a lot of guys making sure they keep a spot in the twins press box buffett line.


    Farley: "I've...got... a plan".
    Spade: "Yikes".

  15. #35
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    I like what they've done for the future but hate what they did to this year.

    I think if they even took a shot at one of the big name FAs this year I'd probably be OK with most of the rest of the offseason. You can't make people come here but you can offer them good contracts, at least then you're trying and if they choose elsewhere then it's not because you were not seriously in the running moneywise.

    I wouldn't blame someone for not signing with the Twins if they want to win now, but if it's because they didn't try then that's annoying.

  16. #36
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    I like what they've done for the future but hate what they did to this year.
    I'm on board with the re-stocking the minors thing. Completely. What I find annoying is that it didn't have to be Either/Or. No, they could not create a true contender in one off-season by any conceivable means, but (to paraphrase Terry Ryan from another context) the Twins are leaving money on the table for 2013. It's almost as if they see it as invalid to make 2013 better unless it is with players who will also be making 2015-and-onward better, while I would be happy with contracts that expire after 2014 that get us to the promised land.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    I'm on board with the re-stocking the minors thing. Completely. What I find annoying is that it didn't have to be Either/Or. No, they could not create a true contender in one off-season by any conceivable means, but (to paraphrase Terry Ryan from another context) the Twins are leaving money on the table for 2013. It's almost as if they see it as invalid to make 2013 better unless it is with players who will also be making 2015-and-onward better, while I would be happy with contracts that expire after 2014 that get us to the promised land.
    Especially when this concept was touted as one of the reasons for public contribution for Target Field.

  18. #38
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Especially when this concept was touted as one of the reasons for public contribution for Target Field.
    I was not in the Twin Cities during the run-up to getting Target Field built, so I am taking everyone's word that this was the message being delivered by the Twins in persuading tax dollars to be expended. But yes, this is behind my expectation for the team. There should be around $100+M budgeted each and every year for the team. I don't want some kind of "we'll spend less this year and then make it up later", not that the Twins are even offering that as an explanation at the moment - if they saved $20M this year and applied it toward 2015 for a $120M budget, then we'd be disappointed when they "cut back" to a mere $100M in a later year. No. $20M saved this year is just going for additional profit, and it's not justified. Budget the $100M, and then in a year like this use it to ease the pain as the other parts of the plan (which I agree with) come to fruition. And I'm not saying "spend for the sake of spending" - use it to acquire free agents that will strengthen the obvious weak spots on this team.

    The only way I'm mollified is if this supposed flexibility actually gets used later on this season. I am skeptical in the extreme that it will happen, but leave it open as slight benefit of the doubt.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    Gee what i took from the article was, that the Vikings improved once they got a new general manager.....
    some thing to think about
    If you can name the name of the previous GM to Spielman your point could have some merit for an insinuated Twins comparison.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Especially when this concept was touted as one of the reasons for public contribution for Target Field.
    Profit taking occurs when there is nothing in the contract to prevent it.

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