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Thread: Souhan: Being A Twins Fan Requires Patience

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Souhan: Being A Twins Fan Requires Patience

    The Twins couldn't have spun things better themselves. And I mean that as a compliment. Souhan argues that Terry Ryan and the Twins are solely focused on the future, even if he won't admit it.

    The Twins' unwillingness to spend more money on this year's team is a signal that Ryan doesn't think this team is one player away from winning, whether he'll admit it or not. Think of this year not as 2011, when the Twins fell apart, but as 1999-2000, when Ryan began feeding playing time to his best young players while accepting the losses that followed.
    Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)

    I'm still dissappointed in the free agent strategy this offseason, and I think Ryan really blew it on a couple of moves, but Souhan's paradigm is an enticing one.

    Souhan: Forbearance serves Twins and their fans well | StarTribune.com

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    They aren't mutually exclusive

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    Wow..he might as well work for the Twin PR department...there has been a full load of carp coming out of the Star Tribune lately...this one dares to tell people how to be fans....and labels certain fans...nouveau.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    All right, who slipped the Twins Kool Aid into Souhan's morning coffee. Fess up.

    I do not understand the whole "Yeah we suck now, but that's OK, because we've got these great prospects who will be able to help us in a year. Or two. Or maybe three." Souhan can point to the '99-00 Twins, I can point to the Royals and Pirates of the last 20 years.

    Howard Sinker had it right. Building for 2015 is great. Refusing to build a bridge to 2015 is unacceptable. Why would we as fans tolerate the Twins' refusal to put a quality team on the field? What other business says to its customers "Yeah, we know our product sucks. We've got some great improvements planned, but they won't really make it to production for another 2-3 years. Still we expect you to keep buying from us until then." It's ludicrous.

    Especially in this division. A couple of other decent, reliable players could really have made a difference in the outlook this year. But instead, we're going in with question marks all over the place, and it's not likely the answers will all be in our favor.

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    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)
    Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.
    Yeah, but then, collectively as this generation of fans, we couldn't have been educated and lectured to on the extreme value of "forbearance". What a load of excrement, as Souhan hits another new low.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.
    Wow Brock, never thought I'd see you join the ranks of the mouth breathers crew on this site but you just gave it a good shot. Carroll has no trade value and is much better then any internal option, they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers, I wouldn't be shocked if he was traded later this year and plus, the twins can compete in 2014 when he is still under contract. Perkins is still young and could be a big piece moving forward, unless you wanna go out and overpay for a closer when the Twins do compete again.

    iMO the only terrible decision made this off season was giving Corrieia the 2nd year. But at least that is only 5 mil

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    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers,
    Source?

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."
    Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Source?
    Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)

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    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

    If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.
    You're being pretty assumptious that the guys you mention would receive maximum value this offseason. All those guys can still be traded.

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    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.
    If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

    The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.
    They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)

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    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)
    Nor a super cohesive, quiet clubhouse -- I'd bet.
    Last edited by Ultima Ratio; 02-11-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

    The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.
    Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

    The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

    Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

    The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

    Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.
    The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, he was in charge the first time 14 years...why not include it all?
    Last edited by ThePuck; 02-11-2013 at 10:41 PM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

    The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

    Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.
    Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, the players win.
    They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

    Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

    Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??
    So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...took him 9 seasons to win his first division

    And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

    But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up.

    BTW, I'm sure you'll give Smith some credit too since many of our best prospects were brought in under his watch...
    Last edited by ThePuck; 02-11-2013 at 10:47 PM.

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