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Thread: More Proof that the Twins Just Don't Care or Aren't Trying Very Hard

  1. #61
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Meh, the numbers were off, for some reason I thought he got 1 mil in arbitration (super 2 etc). They certainly aren't obligated to keep him on the roster, but at this point it's pretty clear they value Butera at least a bit, and he certainly isn't worth cutting (and eating the money) for yet another AAAA catcher. Yes, let's give a guy a contract for 700k then cut him before spring training even begins, just so we can bring in another catcher who most likely will never hack it in the major leagues, oh, by the way, we already have what is most likely the best catching duo in all of baseball in Mauer and Doumit.
    The point is this: while there may be legitimate reasons not to try to upgrade--and it's dubious whether this would be an upgrade--the cost of Butera's contract isn't one of them. IF the Twins could upgrade at "backup to the backup catcher" they should. They are currently sporting an $80M payroll. Money isn't the reason they should or shouldn't do ANYthing, certainly not the cost of eating $700k at any rate.

  2. #62
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The point is this: while there may be legitimate reasons not to try to upgrade--and it's dubious whether this would be an upgrade--the cost of Butera's contract isn't one of them. IF the Twins could upgrade at "backup to the backup catcher" they should. They are currently sporting an $80M payroll. Money isn't the reason they should or shouldn't do ANYthing, certainly not the cost of eating $700k at any rate.
    +1. And it wouldn't have cost even 700,000 to replace Butera, at least in the case of Luis Martinez, would it? Martinez was waived three weeks before the Twins "avoided arbitration" (thank goodness, imagine the payday one of the worst hitters in the history of baseball may have scored there) by signing Butera. Assuming Martinez plays for the minimum, the Twins actually would've spent less.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    Nothing is going to change this year. This is the year to find out what the Twins have and where they need replacements. I expect a great deal of roster turnover this year, trading deadline and maybe some spring training deals.
    Isn't that what they were doing last year...isn't it clear what we need...the same thing we've needed for awhile now?

  4. #64
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Why exactly is there so much love for Hermann?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Why exactly is there so much love for Hermann?
    For comparison's sake. Hermann's bat projects higher than Martinez (PCL). He also brings positional flexibility (good for a guy who you are looking at for more than defense). Herrmann > Martinez, in my opinion. Therefore, I wouldn't have picked him up. Keep watching the waiver wire for something else.

    If Mauer or Doumit goes down, I'm betting Herrmann gets a call. Besides, for the limited ABs Butera will have, his defense might actually adjust for only getting on base 1 out of every 10. It's at least possible.

  6. #66
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    I'll throw this out -does anyone know anything about Martinez other than he put up an OK OPS in a high offensive league as a 26 year old?

    Chief is of course correct that 700k owed to Butera should have little or no bearing on a potential move but is anyone that sure that this guy represents that, especially on the defensive end?

  7. #67
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Maybe Martinez is better than Butera. Regardless, the Twins should just carry two catchers. I don't want either Martinez OR Butera on the 25-man.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    You can tell that people are ready for baseball when a transaction this insignificant ignites this much angst and argument.

    Fear not, lads, we'll have real, substantive things to discuss soon enough.

  9. #69
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Terry Ryan doesn't care about black people.
    Site your source. I will except wikipedia but you must use MLA format when citing said website.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    You also have to look at the DHs in baseball. Doumit is one of the better ones and has potential value at not one, but 2 positions (not the best catcher, I know).
    Where is your evidence that Doumit is one of the better DHs in the league? I think he had a good year last year, but for me, the eye test wouldn't put him among that group. Now maybe his production would put him in that group, but you need to support your arguments. Just stating it doesn't make it so.

  12. #72
    The evils of having a full 40-man roster. The next step is to wait for cuts that happen at spring training end, when you can free a spot with the DL, but then you might have to add a Rich Haren to the roster anyways.

    Could the Twins cut and pass thru waivers Swarzak and Butera? Would both become free agents if unclaimed rather than accept a Rochester spot? Should the Twins not keep DeVries, Wood or Roeincke on the 40-man. Santana and Pinto expendable, put on the 40-man too early?

    There isn't a lot of fodder. Yes, there are replacement value players, but they are all minimum-wage earners at the moment and no better or worse than what else is out there, some for a higher amount and same upside.

    Always a tough call.

    At some point, the Twins could maybe trade AAAA guys to another team for their AAAA guys, just a change of scenery, which is often helpful, or to keep some depth.

    But right now, I sadly am falling into the funk of watching the Twins rebuild from within. Let's see what happens with spring training and where minor league prospects fare against minor league free agents.
    Joel Thingvall
    www.thingvall.com
    rosterman at www.twinscards.com

  13. #73
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bteichr View Post
    Where is your evidence that Doumit is one of the better DHs in the league? I think he had a good year last year, but for me, the eye test wouldn't put him among that group. Now maybe his production would put him in that group, but you need to support your arguments. Just stating it doesn't make it so.
    Doumit's 2012 .781 OPS would rank 4th among DH's with at least 300 PA's, behind Ortiz, Encarnacion, and Butler. Of course, if you compared Doumit to that group using the .858 OPS he posted while batting as a DH in 200 PA's, he moves into pretty much a tie for third with Butler.

    Argument supported?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Doumit's 2012 .781 OPS would rank 4th among DH's with at least 300 PA's, behind Ortiz, Encarnacion, and Butler. Of course, if you compared Doumit to that group using the .858 OPS he posted while batting as a DH in 200 PA's, he moves into pretty much a tie for third with Butler.

    Argument supported?
    It wasn't your argument, however it does provide some support for that statement.

  15. #75
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Terry Ryan doesn't care about black people.
    Thanks Kanye. This statement is indicative of the level of discourse happening in this thread. Maybe I should quote Ralph Wiggum next...

  16. #76
    Twins News Team MVP
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    Between Roberts "being-31-years-old-ness" and Rodriguez' ".607 OPS from last year", which screams "long-term upgrade" to you more?
    I didn't advocate this trade specifically, screaming, shouting or whispering. I pointed out that there are always opportunities to upgrade your roster if you care to do so, this being one of a presumed-many potential, and hopefully better, possibilities.

    I also pointed out that, sadly, Roberts career OPS of .717 and Rodriguez's career OPS of .658 (I did notice how you cherry-picked one year to make your arguement, even so, that .607 OPS for 2012, would still outstrip everyone in the Twins MI except Carroll, and Rodriguez is 27 with more range) would be a major upgrade at the plate and even a net upgrade in the field, combined with Carroll as UI, over what the Twins currently project. I would say that Carroll is proof that Robert's age shouldn't necessarily be a deterrent to consider him in taking on Carroll's role as backup 2nd/3rd baseman when Carroll retires- plus you'd have a superior bat coming off the bench.

    All things being equal, I would prefer a trade for a young, AAA-proven, blocked MI, that projects to hit up to .150 points OPS higher than Florimon and Escobar and retain hope that Rosario keeps progressing at 2B to become at least adequate at the position at the ML level (that still likely means 2015, at the earliest). I'll get back to you on that, or feel free to find them, as well.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Maybe Martinez is better than Butera. Regardless, the Twins should just carry two catchers. I don't want either Martinez OR Butera on the 25-man.
    I am in 100% agreeent with your statement. But, since the Twins insist on the 3 catcher alignment, and the best argument for Butera appears to be that "he isn't going to play that much, anyway", I thought why not take a free shot at a guy who might actually provide some pop off the bench to attempt to raise their bench OPS above .600 and a more legit bat to free up the Twins in pulling the trigger on an in-season move on Doumit. This was the underlying thinking to the hypothesis that the Twins are in full "wait-and-see what we got" mode, instead of "trying" or "caring" to get better by having more than just Plan A in their handbook.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bteichr View Post
    It wasn't your argument, however it does provide some support for that statement.
    Which could have been looked up and confirmed by anyone, I thought it was apparent, especially to Twins fans, that Doumit was a very productive DH in 2012, with additional value to a team that wanted a position player.

  19. #79
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    5 pages? **** I really miss BYTO

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    5 pages? **** I really miss BYTO
    Then why do you keep coming back here? Somebody forcing you?

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