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Thread: Catching and pitch framing

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    Owner All-Star Parker Hageman's Avatar
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    Catching and pitch framing

    This is an excellent segment on MLB's Clubhouse Confidential that examines both the statistical side of the value of pitch framing (with Baseball Prospectus's Ben Lindbergh) and the practice of pitch framing (with former MLB catcher Dave Valle).

    Watch this when you get the opportunity.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    50 runs. I still have a hard time believing it. Molina only caught 100 games last season. That's half a run a game through framing. More reasonable than some of the numbers we've seen in the past but damn, that's still a huge portion of runs allowed (somewhere around 8% of all of Tampa Bay's runs allowed, despite Molina only catching 60% of their games).

    It's a tough stat to swallow and I'm incredibly skeptical that a catcher can have that large an impact through one facet of their game. But I love the fact that people are working so hard on refining the metric.

  3. #3
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff.

    I remember when I played, just up through high school, pretty often an umpire would come to the benches before games and tell us "go up there ready to swing." If MLB umpires are the same way, then they want to call strikes and move the game along. They don't want to debate balls and strikes with people at the plate. Giving the ump a clear angle and sitting still, as Valle describes, gives him the best opportunity to justify and defend his strike calls, I think.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff but it makes about zero sense

    This argument misses one single really important reality: When the HP ump is crouched behind the catcher, he just sees the trajectory of the ball and he is totally blocked seeing the catcher's mitt. So he really calls balls and strikes based on events that happen before the ball hits the catcher's mitt. So this whole argument is kinda BS.

    Catcher might be framing a pitch for the CF camera, but it is not the CF camera that calls balls and strikes
    Last edited by Thrylos; 02-02-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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    Should umpires be paying attention to the pitch f/x data?

    How are they made aware individually or as a group where they are missing calls? What work do they do towards improving at their craft?

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    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Interesting stuff but it makes about zero sense

    This argument misses one single really important reality: When the HP ump is crouched behind the catcher, he just sees the trajectory of the ball and he is totally blocked seeing the catcher's mitt. So he really calls balls and strikes based on events that happen before the ball hits the catcher's mitt. So this whole argument is kinda BS.

    Catcher might be framing a pitch for the CF camera, but it is not the CF camera that calls balls and strikes
    I watched the video, and it made sense to me. Yes, the catcher's mitt blocks the view at the last instant, but the ump is looking over the catcher and can see the mitt and whether it is moving.

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    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Here is another tutorial about framing.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Brad Swanson's Avatar
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    If that increase in strikeout rate actually correlates with the pitch framing, then I could see the 50 runs saved.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    If that increase in strikeout rate actually correlates with the pitch framing, then I could see the 50 runs saved.
    All the strike 1 and 2 calls in PAs that don't even end up strikeouts too, just getting the pitcher ahead in the count counts for a lot.

  10. #10
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    When the HP ump is crouched behind the catcher, he just sees the trajectory of the ball and he is totally blocked seeing the catcher's mitt.
    Not if you're a good pitch framer, according to OP.

  11. #11
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    Tampa Bay was the team talked about. The improve total strikeouts could be that Matt More was better at striking out batters than Wade Davis in a starting role. Price, Shields and Hellickson were all just a little better. You could say they are young pitchers getting smarter, better reputation. Wade Davis as a relieve threw the ball harder than he did as a starter thus getting more stikeouts than what replaced in the bullpen,

  12. #12
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Watching some baseball this winter. Here's a nice Mauer frame job from last May 27 for Strike 3. Walters pitching



    edit: Pitchf/x says this one was 1.211 feet from the center
    Last edited by Willihammer; 02-03-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Here's another one from the 4th inning, same game. 1-0 pitch to Alex Avila for strike 1. According to pitchf/x, this crissed the plate at -1.173 feet from the center of the plate.



    Here's the scatterplot for the game. You can see where the two pitches above stick out on either side.
    Last edited by Willihammer; 02-03-2013 at 03:15 PM.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    While I'm at it. One more pretty nice frame for strike 3 in the 5th inning. Batter is Boesch, 2-2 pitch with the bases loaded. It's the 6th pitch of the at-bat, right on the line at .79 feet from center, Mauer gets the call. Walters 6th and final strikeout looking for the game.


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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Brad Swanson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Tampa Bay was the team talked about. The improve total strikeouts could be that Matt More was better at striking out batters than Wade Davis in a starting role. Price, Shields and Hellickson were all just a little better. You could say they are young pitchers getting smarter, better reputation. Wade Davis as a relieve threw the ball harder than he did as a starter thus getting more stikeouts than what replaced in the bullpen,
    Well yes, you could say all that, but you could also say it was the pitch framing. There was statistical evidence and research to support Molina's pitch framing. Just because something seems unlikely, doesn't mean it can't be true. Plus, Willihammer made an excellent point about strike one and strike two.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    I hope this thread will eventually have a GIF of every pitch from the upcoming season so we can really evaluate the framing of pitches.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Interesting stuff but it makes about zero sense

    This argument misses one single really important reality: When the HP ump is crouched behind the catcher, he just sees the trajectory of the ball and he is totally blocked seeing the catcher's mitt. So he really calls balls and strikes based on events that happen before the ball hits the catcher's mitt.
    Having umpired games - granted not at a high level .... wrong. Umpires are taught to position themselves where they can see the ball into the glove.

    With that said, I'll freely admit that I've often wondered how some of the MLB umpires I've seen can see the low outside pitch - there are umpires who appear to be hiding behind the catcher more than they are getting themselves in position to see the ball all the way in. I can even understand why - take a few foul tips off a 96 mph fastball & "not getting hit" can move up on the priority list.

    But here's where I think "framing" is an issue. When the catcher moves, he distracts - sometimes his movement blocks the umpire's vision (one of the concerns about Joe Mauer when he started was how big he was, that he'd often block the umpire's vision). There's another point in there - the less the catcher moves around to catch pitches, the more "command" the pitcher appears to have. Umpires are more likely to call strikes for pitchers who hit their target - even when the target is off the plate.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD57 View Post
    Having umpired games - granted not at a high level .... wrong. Umpires are taught to position themselves where they can see the ball into the glove.

    With that said, I'll freely admit that I've often wondered how some of the MLB umpires I've seen can see the low outside pitch - there are umpires who appear to be hiding behind the catcher more than they are getting themselves in position to see the ball all the way in. I can even understand why - take a few foul tips off a 96 mph fastball & "not getting hit" can move up on the priority list.
    And by the same token, there's no way to have your field of vision covering the strike zone accurately. I've umpired plenty myself, (ten years of games with players ranging in age from 6 to 40) and you have to position yourself off-center in some degree or the catcher will be obstructing your field of view. It's all a matter of what call you are leaving more to chance. Are you skewing yourself inside or outside and leaving the opposite corner more open to human error? Are you setting up down the middle as much as possible, but higher up (to stay above the catcher blocking your view) and leaving the low strike more missable? It's all a matter of trying to minimize missed calls, but no matter what, even if you're umping a little league game, there's a human body that's going to be between you and the plate, and you have to adjust your field of view around it. Many times it still does come down to reading trajectories, not seeing the ball into the mitt, and making the call based on the best judgement of the umpire, and in the case of pro umps, the tens of thousands of pitches these guys have called for a ball or strike in their careers.

  19. #19
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    If the number of stikeouts improved with the catcher then why the increase from 1141 strikeouts in 2008to 1260 in 2009 for the Yanks? Molina caught 50 less games in 2009. I am too lazy to bother figuring out how many strikeouts turns into 50 less runs, but it would take a quite a few. Yet with Posada, a bad framing catcher in a different baseball prospectus article back catching, strikeouts went up. go figure

  20. #20
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    I was hoping that one of the supporters of pitch framing would have answered my question. How many strikeouts does it take to save a run?

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