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Thread: Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum

  1. #141
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    People get your passion. They just want some creative idea other than "We have more money to spare. Offer more - Offer more." GMs make some excellent decisions (the trades) and GMs make some bad decisions (FAs) throughout baseball. Lets see where TR takes the Twins. He has been the guy who makes the decision for 1 year. Assistants don't make decisions - GMs do. Let the man work his plan. I think it funny how quick people call for a guys throat on this board.
    I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?
    I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?
    Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

    When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

    Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

    But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    I get everyones point who thinks this way. I'm stating that this has been the Twins way for 28 years with Free Agency. Ownership and FO changed their draft philosophy in 2012. That's the 1st Step. They improved farm system with trades. That's the 2nd step. Let's see if they change their philosophy with FAs as they move forward. Asking for a complete change in philosophy in 1 year might be a bit much. Especially when you are calling for TRs head. Can wer at least enjoy the first changes of the last 28 years.
    The only logical idea behind the whole free agency thing is either they literally will not pay market value for free agents.. or they really didn't like their chances as a team this year and opted to keep their money. Maybe when they have better pieces in place they will, but it'll be a few years before we can confirm or deny that theory. Then again, when this team had such a need to be supplanted with free agent arms And they still didn't, its easy to see the pessimist side of things that they flat out won't pay out the money need for a quality free agent arm.

    as far as other theories for free agents Signing, it can be lumped into three categories: money, chance to win, personal ties (family or beginning of career was there, play for a specific manager, etc). I highly doubt if someone likes a city to buy a vacation home there, or the weather, or if they have their favorite restaurant chain there will be any reasons to outweigh the previous top three.

    If the Twins want better free agents to come here, it really is that simple: Actually offer them a contract and don't low ball them.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.
    True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

  5. #145
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't
    I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

    You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.

  6. #146
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    I don't know what else anyone can add to this. What haven't they done For 28 years? Pay free agents market value. What can they do moving forward to get more free agents to sign with them? Pay market value.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

    When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

    Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

    But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.
    All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't
    There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.
    The thing is, Ryan isn't "outside the box". It's the same box he's been in for close to 20 years. And having two "Saber guys" isn't a huge paradigm shift. Neither is drafting hard throwing pitchers. (The past handful of drafts have been peppered with those kind of guys in the first 10 rounds.) Ryan will get his few years, no question, but the process so far has been entirely the "tearing down" part without a whole lot of hope that a serious "building up" phase is anywhere close.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

    You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.
    My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.
    We did make the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 didn't we? You could be the Cubs - Pirates - KC - etc. - We made the playoffs just 2 seasons ago. - WOW

  12. #152
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.
    Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

    I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

    I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.
    I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.
    Last edited by lightfoot789; 01-27-2013 at 07:31 PM.

  14. #154
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Staving off apathy, and the ensuing downward spiral of income and budget levels, should be a big concern. If you wait around too long to make improvements you may find the budget being unsuitable for "overpaying then."
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.
    So years down the road, when FA prices have continued on a severe upward trend which is about to be bumped even more by an across-the-board influx of TV money, the guy who has spent the last two decades not willing to pay market value will suddenly completely change his stance and begin throwing money around. Does your gut have any stocks I should get in on? (By which I mean avoid like the plague.)

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.
    I'm sorry, but a few posts earlier you stated "you're about results" but now you have a gut feeling that he is going to buck his trend of not showing results regarding free agency?

  17. #157
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    This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.
    No one is saying to stock your team with overpaid free agents. They are saying to have your home grown core supplanted with a free agent move here and there to fill weaknesses created by weaknesses in your farm system. We could use FA for league average starting pitching, and a short stop. They are a great need to this team and they wouldn't be blocking any position for a few years (where we would still have a hole at said positions).

  19. #159
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    The Rays and Nationals did things the right way.
    Um, you are aware of the Nationals' activity during FA right?

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.
    I don't quite understand your reluctance to make this team more competitive now when they have the means to do it. Nobody has any issue with the moves Ryan has made to bolster the team a couple of years from now, it's been supported countless times. What is your issue with anybody that seems to think it's reasonable to spend some money on some players that could help this team in the short-term, which is within their means, and not hurt the team in the future?

    Additionally,if you are all about new ideas, would spending money on some decent free agents not qualify as a new idea for a team that has historically never done it?
    Last edited by twinsnorth49; 01-27-2013 at 09:25 PM.

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