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Thread: ESPN: Twins Optimal Year Of Contention is 2016

  1. #121
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer 70charger's Avatar
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    Enjoy your circlejerk ThePuck and TheLeviathan. When you're "done," will you maybe move on? You'd make great Yankees fans.

  2. #122
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    2. I, for one, think 2016 is a nice pipe dream to sell fans. If that gives you a warm fuzzy, great. As for me, my fandom is pretty much tied up in 2013.
    I've been on board with the moves Ryan has made that seem keyed to 2015 and beyond. But I don't see that as totally exclusive to also spending the dough to make a better 2013-14 than we are seeing. "They" said that Target Field would provide the financial means to get after it every season. And I don't think expecting a payroll above $100M even in a rebuilding year equates to "spend for the sake of spending".

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    1. When I see some proof that payroll isn't going to keep going down, I'll believe it. Until then, well, lets just say the trend isn't encouraging.

    2. I, for one, think 2016 is a nice pipe dream to sell fans. If that gives you a warm fuzzy, great. As for me, my fandom is pretty much tied up in 2013. I don't give a rat's arse about how many games they might win in 2016. Even if you could somehow predict what the Twins will look like in three years--which none of us can--how does that help you enjoy watching this ​team? I'm paying money in 2013 to watch the 2013 team. I'll worry about the 2016 team in 2016.
    You demand proof of others yet have no proof what the plan is or is not. Can't argue with that.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Everybody is excited about Toronto's new team - Which is in many ways similar to Miami's stars last year (Johnson / Buerle / Reyes). I'm not buying the hype and glad we didn't overpay for guys like that. What you have is a potentially stable staff (no stars) and some up and coming prospects earning a chance by June in MN. That should allow 2013 to serve as a season for fans to see their young prospects emerge. I'm sure people in Oakland are excited about Parker and Cespedes even though they were unproven rookies in 2012. All you can ever do is hope and pray that your returning players have equal to better seasons than their best ever seasons of the past. Would you want to have Cliff Lee on your team now at his current contract? Do you get 2011 or 2012 Cliff Lee? Is there a secret to making the right choice?

  5. #125
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    All you can ever do is hope and pray that your returning players have equal to better seasons than their best ever seasons of the past.
    Well, as long as we're being reasonable...

  6. #126
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    I am with chief. If a team has always acted a certain way, until they actually act differently, I would expect them to act the same. That seems fairly logical in approach. Not sure why that makes some people so angry.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Enjoy your circlejerk ThePuck and TheLeviathan. When you're "done," will you maybe move on? You'd make great Yankees fans.
    Ah, I love comments like this...

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    You demand proof of others yet have no proof what the plan is or is not. Can't argue with that.
    How can anyone know exactly what "the plan" is when the Twins FO talks out of both sides of their collective mouth? The watchword shoud always be, "watch what they do, not what they say". This has demontrated itself eminently this offseason.

    I, as one of many, knowing full-well the Pohlad's reluctant ownership history of the Twins, had chosen to believe them when they began the back-channel whispering campaign that they were embarking on a multi-year process of cutting payroll, in the latter half of the 2011 season. This of course, was patently absurd on its face- with conceivably 2 of the best players in the game in their prime, and locked up in high dollar contracts just recently inked- but fit in well with the "commitment" level that the club had made to the community in getting Target Field built. Nice "plan"!

    So far, notwithstanding what has amounted to PR White Noise to the contrary, the trend is clearly heading South- ultimately to a payroll in the $50-60M range by 2015. Anyone remember the last time someone in the FO talked about the 50% of revenue for payroll "rule"?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    How can anyone know exactly what "the plan" is when the Twins FO talks out of both sides of their collective mouth? The watchword shoud always be, "watch what they do, not what they say". This has demontrated itself eminently this offseason.

    I, as one of many, knowing full-well the Pohlad's reluctant ownership history of the Twins, had chosen to believe them when they began the back-channel whispering campaign that they were embarking on a multi-year process of cutting payroll, in the latter half of the 2011 season. This of course, was patently absurd on its face- with conceivably 2 of the best players in the game in their prime, and locked up in high dollar contracts just recently inked- but fit in well with the "commitment" level that the club had made to the community in getting Target Field built. Nice "plan"!

    So far, notwithstanding what has amounted to PR White Noise to the contrary, the trend is clearly heading South- ultimately to a payroll in the $50-60M range by 2015. Anyone remember the last time someone in the FO talked about the 50% of revenue for payroll "rule"?
    2010? Maybe more recently, not sure.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Ah, I love comments like this...
    What is it you love?

    Must be referring to 70s all-out effort at staying classy when he runs out of knee-jerk-supportive FO paeans, shibboleths and apologias dedicated to the oh-so-put-upon-woe-is-us Twins FO?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    What is it you love?

    Must be referring to 70s all-out effort at staying classy when he runs out of knee-jerk-supportive FO paeans, shibboleths and apologias dedicated to the oh-so-put-upon-woe-is-us Twins FO?
    Something like that :-)
    Last edited by ThePuck; 01-22-2013 at 07:44 PM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    How can anyone know exactly what "the plan" is when the Twins FO talks out of both sides of their collective mouth? The watchword shoud always be, "watch what they do, not what they say". This has demontrated itself eminently this offseason.

    I, as one of many, knowing full-well the Pohlad's reluctant ownership history of the Twins, had chosen to believe them when they began the back-channel whispering campaign that they were embarking on a multi-year process of cutting payroll, in the latter half of the 2011 season. This of course, was patently absurd on its face- with conceivably 2 of the best players in the game in their prime, and locked up in high dollar contracts just recently inked- but fit in well with the "commitment" level that the club had made to the community in getting Target Field built. Nice "plan"!

    So far, notwithstanding what has amounted to PR White Noise to the contrary, the trend is clearly heading South- ultimately to a payroll in the $50-60M range by 2015. Anyone remember the last time someone in the FO talked about the 50% of revenue for payroll "rule"?
    What is your proof that the Pohlads are reluctant owners?

  13. #133
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Enjoy your circlejerk ThePuck and TheLeviathan. When you're "done," will you maybe move on? You'd make great Yankees fans.
    There isnt much else to talk about. If you care to post something else fine but this is crap. A poster made an overzealous putdown about negativity which is getting really tired. I wont pretend to know what 2016 will bring but I know skepticism about this team's aggresiveness is warranted.

    I'm annoyed by this mentality that anything but sheepish loyalty is a bane on the board.

  14. #134
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    At best we can hope that 2015 looks like 2000? Hell, I'd say that at best we can hope that 2013 looks like 2000 as Hendriks, Gibson, Arcia, and Hicks come up and play well. If we're talking "at best" situations, that'd be the "best" situation for the team (not to mention that the 2000 team did not have a Mauer or Morneau on the roster).

    Starting this season, the Twins should have a steady flow of prospects coming through the system. Will they work out and play well right off the bat? Probably not but it's possible that they come up and start playing well a hell of a long time before 2015.
    Sorry goofed my years. I meant 2001 in terms of record.

  15. #135
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Sorry goofed my years. I meant 2001 in terms of record.
    I know what you meant. The first winning year with young faces. Still, that year could be 2013 (unlikely) or 2014 (slightly more likely). 2015 is far from a best case situation. The 2000 Twins had Radke and Lawton. The 2013 and beyond Twins have a lot more than that in Mauer, Morneau, Willingham, Doumit, etc.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    What is your proof that the Pohlads are reluctant owners?
    Now I know you're trolling.

  17. #137
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Please guys, stop nipping at each other and stay on topic.

  18. #138
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Now I know you're trolling.
    If you've made it this far, you've given up the right to be shocked or offended by this thread. It already has an equation of Jamey Carroll to Hall of Famer Phil Rizzuto, a daydream of a Nick Blackburn multi-year extension, and a payroll-free comparison of Terry Ryan to Billy Beane.

    Edit: Oops, that's probably nipping. Self-administered corrective action as pictured:
    Last edited by LaBombo; 01-22-2013 at 09:02 PM.

  19. #139
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I know what you meant. The first winning year with young faces. Still, that year could be 2013 (unlikely) or 2014 (slightly more likely). 2015 is far from a best case situation. The 2000 Twins had Radke and Lawton. The 2013 and beyond Twins have a lot more than that in Mauer, Morneau, Willingham, Doumit, etc.
    Brock, let's at least be fair. Koskie and Hunter were arguably more productive than we can expect Mauer and Morneau to be next year. It's certainly more than just Lawton. Joe Mays and Brad Radke are likely better than anything the Twins can expect to have until 2015.

    I understand what you're suggesting, but the point was that if Pseudo's argument was to be taken seriously he'd have to suggest that 2016 would be a different situation than our current one. (i.e. payroll not being reduced because of consecutive losing seasons) I think it's hardly unrealistic to think the Twins may be heading down a path of a series of losing seasons prior to 2016. So the suggestion that by then the payroll should be ticking up doesn't hold water to me. At least not with such a degree of certainty. There is a good chance most of this current roster is either gone or still earning low arby checks by that time. Until I see payroll heading a different direction, it's hard not to see what Ryan has done throughout his career and cringe at the idea of anyone claiming with certainty that the payroll will be above 60M. Even if 2015 is a jump upwards (which is a stretch considering it's like to be many of these key player's first or second seasons) it's not going to be dramatic enough to think payroll is going to do any major jumping.

    I'm hopeful it will be, but sure as hell skeptical.

  20. #140
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Does that article say (I'm not an insider) what "contention" means?
    It does not, as far as I can tell. But the takeaway from the article that's infinitely more meaningful than its timetable for undefined contention is this nugget:

    "Manager Ron Gardenhire recently told GM Terry Ryan he wants the 23-year-old [Hicks] to have a legitimate chance to win the job out of spring training."

    The board consensus that this idea ranks somewhere between sub-optimal and blithering idiocy aside, the real danger presented by the report is in what is missing from it. There is absolutely no mention after that sentence that Terry Ryan hit Ron Gardenhire's mouth with a baseball bat until words meant to influence front office player personnel decisions stopped pouring forth from it.

    So we're left with only the hope that Ryan is merely being diplomatic by not openly physically or verbally assaulting his manager's dopey ideas. It's better than nothing, I guess.

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