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Thread: Team Control and Hicks

  1. #21
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Same poster who creates threads claiming the Twins brass are racist in their signings and Dick Bremer racist for saying Delmon Young was once property of the Twins, now says the Twins are hicks. Isn't that derogatory for poor, white, rural people? Wow, that's racist. Am I offended? No. But then again, I'm not real good at race-baiting.
    I have seen enough of your posts to believe you might actually be serious.

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Keeping them down until mid-May would be an attempt to avoid super-2 status. The way super 2's are designated changed in the last CBA if I'm not mistaken, and it goes by a percentage. So, teams would really have to be good at guessing or keep players down much longer than they should be to avoid super 2. I don't think the Twins were worried about that with Dozier or will focus on it too much in the future. I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head (maybe Jeremy does), but the main reason to keep guys down will be the arbitration year now, which isn't too difficult.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
    Keeping them down until mid-May would be an attempt to avoid super-2 status. The way super 2's are designated changed in the last CBA if I'm not mistaken, and it goes by a percentage. So, teams would really have to be good at guessing or keep players down much longer than they should be to avoid super 2. I don't think the Twins were worried about that with Dozier or will focus on it too much in the future. I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head (maybe Jeremy does), but the main reason to keep guys down will be the arbitration year now, which isn't too difficult.
    I don't think the Twins should be concerned about super 2. They may spend more money on Aaron Hicks in arbitration, but mid market teams can afford to spend that cost. They should be concerned about service time and free agency. That date is fixed and waiting a few weeks into the season guarantees an extra year before free agency.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    I have seen enough of your posts to believe you might actually be serious.
    Tongue-in-cheek only to expose and ridicule race-baiting and hypocrisy. Don't want to hijack the thread beyond this.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Same poster who creates threads claiming the Twins brass are racist in their signings and Dick Bremer racist for saying Delmon Young was once property of the Twins, now says the Twins are hicks. Isn't that derogatory for poor, white, rural people? Wow, that's racist. Am I offended? No. But then again, I'm not real good at race-baiting.
    I created this thread so the comment must be aimed at me. I will have to be more careful about the words I choose and have edited the unintended heading. I am confused by the other references you attributed to me. I don' t recall participating or being interested in any of those discussions.

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I created this thread so the comment must be aimed at me. I will have to be more careful about the words I choose and have edited the unintended heading. I am confused by the other references you attributed to me. I don' t recall participating or being interested in any of those discussions.
    Nope not you. Many on here will know to whom I refer, and remember well. Sorry this was not clear.

    Edit: What? Don't change the heading! There's nothing in there that's offensive. Don't self-censor.
    Last edited by Ultima Ratio; 01-19-2013 at 11:57 PM. Reason: To implore
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  7. #27
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    Gibson should get the Medlen treatment where he stays in extended spring training a couple of extra weeks and then goes to Rochester where he can be limited to 3-5 innings/start. That can't be done in the majors and then there's a better chance that he won't need to get shut down in September. This of course can completely change if hendriks completely sucks or other pitchers get injured in spring training and the only other option is sending out the Manship equivalent.

    I would also like the same done with Hicks. I'm okay with starting the season with Mastro and bringing Hicks up in May. This gives the team an extra year of team control but gets him Super 2.

    The significant change in the last CBA is that more players now qualify for Super 2 status and the date is probably late June or maybe even July. Of course the date won't be known for a couple of years. I really don't care if players achieve Super 2 status (it's not my money) but team control is important.

  8. #28
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    Why can't Gibson start 3-5 innings in the majors? What prevents that? They will carry 13 pitchers, why not have Gibson give them good innings here, and not in Rochester?

    Team control is only about money. This team has no contracts to speak of, what makes anyone think they won't be able to afford Hicks if they want to keep him? If he's the best OF, he should be up here. It is disrespectful of ticket holders to do otherwise. People seem pretty content just punting on 2013, as if fan interest will be there no matter how bad (and how little hope for the future the average fan sees) they are next season.
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #29
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    To be fair, the Twins do not always follow the wisdom of keeping players down for an extra month or two. Joe Mauer was up right away in 2004 right away. Last year, Parmelee and Hendriks both made the opening day roster. So, although I think sending Hicks/Gibson down for a month would be the smart thing to do, I don't think that is what the Twins will do if they go out and win a job in spring training (which of course is crazy because spring training stats mean so little).

  10. #30
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    Buxton, Arcia, Kepler and Benson. Sano or Rosario if they don't work out in the infield. The pipeline to the outfield is pretty full. One less year of team control of Hicks is not going to hurt the future if he is ready now.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    To be fair, the Twins do not always follow the wisdom of keeping players down for an extra month or two. Joe Mauer was up right away in 2004 right away. Last year, Parmelee and Hendriks both made the opening day roster. So, although I think sending Hicks/Gibson down for a month would be the smart thing to do, I don't think that is what the Twins will do if they go out and win a job in spring training (which of course is crazy because spring training stats mean so little).
    Thanks for stating exactly what I was thinking. You read all the time about teams holding back their top prospects to preserve team control, yet I don't recall a situation where I felt the Twins were doing that. For a team that doesn't seem to want to spend money it would be the smart thing to do. I generally am supportive of what Ryan does, but this is one area I think the Twins don't make good decisions.

    As for the individual players, I agree with keeping Gibson on a pitch count in the minors for the first 6 weeks. His post-surgery situation makes it easy to justify. I think Mastro would be fine as a fill-in for the first few weeks, so start Hicks in AAA. The team control is important, arbitration not so much. The Super-2 is hard to predict anyways and I don't think I would support keeping Hicks down that long unless Mastro tears it up in April and May.

  12. #32
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    First, it is not even clear that Hicks is ready to play in the majors. His AA numbers were not dominating, and it has already been pointed out he has not played in AAA at all. He maybe ready defensively, but again he hasn't played above AA, so it is certainly likely he may have something to learn on that side of the ball as well. Second, spring training will likely determine whether he begins the year in the majors, but it won't all be about stats. How he goes about his work, the kind of at bats he takes, how he reacts to this opportunity, and how well Benson and Mastroianni are doing those same things, will probably be the determining factors.

    I don't think the Twins are going to worry about Super Two, and they may not care that much about the extra year of team control either. They probably don't want yo-yo a top prospect back and forth from the majors to the minors, however. So if Hicks is a bit shaky this spring, no matter what the stats say, he may very well begin the year in the minors. Some at bats in AAA won't hurt him, and giving Mastro and/or Benson a real opportunity to show what they could do as starter may not hurt either.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    How much do the Twins pay you? It seems to me the whole purpose of your point is to screw players out of pay raises. Will we the fans see any of this--NO! keeping deserving playes in AAA for an extra month serves to degrade the team's April performance, thus making it more difficult to recover lost ground for the rest of the season. Ever since Gardenhire took over I have watched him f-around with the line-up in April digging a hole that the team has to recover. This policy you advocate is fan hating as much as player hating.
    I don't understand, the ability to keep a player for an additional year before they hit free agency seems to be a fan friendly maneuver. I know I would have loved to have Santana one more year. Same thing with Torii. Starting the clock early on players, especially those that haven't seen AAA yet seems silly unless you're Kirby Puckett or Joe Mauer.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer 70charger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelawareTwinsFan View Post
    I don't understand, the ability to keep a player for an additional year before they hit free agency seems to be a fan friendly maneuver. I know I would have loved to have Santana one more year. Same thing with Torii. Starting the clock early on players, especially those that haven't seen AAA yet seems silly unless you're Kirby Puckett or Joe Mauer.
    This is exactly what I was thinking. As a fan, as a season ticket holder, I am capable of seeing the difference between 2 weeks now and a whole year later. If he's good enough, I want the whole year later. THAT is the fan-friendly move.

  15. #35
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    Why can't Gibson start 3-5 innings in the majors? What prevents that? They will carry 13 pitchers, why not have Gibson give them good innings here, and not in Rochester?
    Routinely putting 6 innings onto the bullpen would destroy it especially when you have other question marks.

    I highly doubt that the Twins carry 13 pitchers the whole season. That gives them a bench of Buterrible, a utility IF'er and a 4th OF'er.

  16. #36
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    Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Routinely putting 6 innings onto the bullpen would destroy it especially when you have other question marks.

    I highly doubt that the Twins carry 13 pitchers the whole season. That gives them a bench of Buterrible, a utility IF'er and a 4th OF'er.
    How? If you plan for this, why can't Gibson pitch 3-4 innings, and the stiff you were going to have be your number 5 pitcher pitch the second half of the game? How is 3-4 good innings from Gibson, followed by 3-4 innings from the long reliever or whatever, bad for the bullpen?

    Why use Gibson's innings in the minors, where they do the Twins no good?
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #38
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.
    I think it's safe to say that this is more about Hicks than it is about Gibson.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  19. #39
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.
    I was going to make this same point. Gibson is already at his prime years, and probably would have been up early last season if it wasn't for the elbow injury. We were willing to burn a year of team control then, why not now? If he's going to be on a 140 inning limit, what's the point of burning a bunch of those innings at AAA?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Some well-known examples of guys who spent time in the minors unnecessarily: Evan Longoria (who fell two days short of a year of service time), David Price (eight days short) and Matt Wieters (who spent two months in the minors to put off arbitration by a year).
    And this is not a matter of teams screwing players; it is the procedure set up in the collective bargaining agreement and agreed to by the players' union as well as the owners. Any hard feelings by a young star should be taken up with the team's union rep and then on up through channels, and not focused on the team's front office; if there's a real problem then it can be negotiated at the next CBA. Fans (IMO) can take note but mainly move on to other topics.

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