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Thread: Joe Saunders

  1. #61
    3 years/$24 million in a heartbeat.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    You're sure they are the same people? Cause I'm all for getting him
    I didn't see any comments from you on this string saying to only go 2-years for Saunders unless I missed it. My comment was directed at those who said they'd only go two years but have ever bitched about the Twins not signing good free agent starting pitching this offseason. Not to name any names but, *cough* Seth Strohs *cough*.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Maybe I just see things differently but I am getting tired of this narrative, one pushed by the Twins. The problem, and what shapes the perception, is that the Twins don't fall into the category of team in your last sentence. They don't have interest in signing "key" or impact FA.
    Last year they tried to get Buehrle, this year they were linked to Dempster. It is not as simple as you make it out to be.

  4. #64
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Maybe I just see things differently but I am getting tired of this narrative, one pushed by the Twins. The problem, and what shapes the perception, is that the Twins don't fall into the category of team in your last sentence. They don't have interest in signing "key" or impact FA.
    They could be lying. They could be telling the truth. Lack of activity at the high end in off-season 2012-13 does not give much information either way about off-season '14-15. I choose to view it as an application of Occam's Razor to keep truth-telling as my assumption. (Of course a different application of Occam would be to note their past history in the FA market - but the conditions in the past aren't necessarily duplicated anymore and again I take them at their word for this year.)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big City View Post
    I didn't see any comments from you on this string saying to only go 2-years for Saunders unless I missed it. My comment was directed at those who said they'd only go two years but have ever bitched about the Twins not signing good free agent starting pitching this offseason. Not to name any names but, *cough* Seth Strohs *cough*.
    No, what you said was, 'Hillarious how people bitch and moan about not signing any good free agent pitchers and then this Saunders rumor comes back around and those same people are saying that they wouln't go 3-years for him. '

    And I'm saying, seems there are quite a few people who were, as you say, 'bitch and moan about not signing any good free agent pitchers' who seem fine with the 3 year move. As your post read, it seemed like you were saying all the ones complaining before are now hesistant to give 3 years...you know, 'those same people' That's not the case. Perhaps you mean some people?

  6. #66
    Three year deal for Saunders shouldn't be a deal breaker. He's been a consistently solid starter, as everyone has pointed out, been of the Twins mold. Doesn't walk guys, should be a inning eater solid middle of the rotation guy. Probably holds runners pretty well though I haven't heard any mention of how well he does this and I don't recall. He's not Buehrle but as a lefty and a veteran, I suspect he's pretty good. In 3 years, we will still need an inning eater, solid back end guy which he will fill this need pretty well. I suspect in 2015 we might have a rotation of Myer and/or May, Gibson, Diamond, Worley and Saunders. If we're flush with flame throwers (maybe Berrios is ready then, we can always make some trades). However, having solid veteran starters is important for any team and Saunders fits this bill. Would give him the 3 years and give him some inning based incentives.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    No, what you said was, 'Hillarious how people bitch and moan about not signing any good free agent pitchers and then this Saunders rumor comes back around and those same people are saying that they wouln't go 3-years for him. '

    And I'm saying, seems there are quite a few people who were, as you say, 'bitch and moan about not signing any good free agent pitchers' who seem fine with the 3 year move. As your post read, it seemed like you were saying all the ones complaining before are now hesistant to give 3 years...you know, 'those same people' That's not the case. Perhaps you mean some people?
    You could have asked him when has Seth ever complained as long as you were pointing out problems with the post. I don't recall Seth ever stating anything but opinions on players values and skills. Seth might be closer to what you criticize people as being relatives to the Pohlads. Has anyone seen Seth and Jim Pohlad together? Lol.
    Last edited by old nurse; 01-16-2013 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #68
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    I think occams razor should lead you to conclude they will not sign big money free agents with this ownership and GM.

  9. #69
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    I echo Jim C. and Ashbury J. Frankly, I think the problem in evaluating Joe Saunders now and Joe Saunders at the inception of free agency is the heart of the issue. If you told me Saunders for 3/24 at the beginning of free agency, I probably would have said I would sign him for less and fewer years. However, with the increased paychecks to starting pitchers this year, in combination with the Twins moves to this point, I think signing Saunders takes on a completely different perspective. Saunders, right now, 3/24 is a decent deal to helpt the Twins be "better" to watch in 2013. He is what he is: average. Average helps the Twins. No huge financial drain, and likely to get value +/- some trade value if you need it.

  10. #70
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Seth might be closer to what you criticize people as being relatives to the Pohlads. Has anyone seen Seth and Jim Pohlad together? Lol.
    If Seth was a Pohlad, the Twins' Class A team would play in Warroad MN.
    I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at Knuckleballsblog.com while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for MetroSportsReport.com.

    ~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    You could have asked him when has Seth ever complained as long as you were pointing out problems with the post. I don't recall Seth ever stating anything but opinions on players values and skills. Seth might be closer to what you criticize people as being relatives to the Pohlads. Has anyone seen Seth and Jim Pohlad together? Lol.
    That was funny...you get a like, Sir

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Last year they tried to get Buehrle, this year they were linked to Dempster. It is not as simple as you make it out to be.
    We've done this dance before and, IMO, being linked means nothing. It might not be as easy as I think, but other teams sure seem to be having an easier time than the Twins make it out to be.

    I believe that the Twins either a) arne't making offers or b) aren't offering as much as other teams. I don't think it's c) that they're making the best offer and it's getting turned down.
    Last edited by Alex; 01-16-2013 at 02:50 PM.

  13. #73
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Well, at least they'd be spending money!

  14. #74
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    I'd rather have Marcum at the same years and $$$ that is being offered Saunders. Now whether Marcum would ever be interested in the Twins...who knows. Saunders is better than many of our alternatives however. So I guess I would have no problem with a 2 year deal.

  15. #75
    It will not take an 8-figure annual salary or more than 2 plus an option year to sign Joe Saunders. Pitchers have been signing for about $3.3M per WAR this off-season when one adjusts for the low first-year salary contracts Jeremy Guthrie and Anibal Sanchez signed. Joe Saunders has posted an average WAR of 1.8 the past 6 years with last year being his second best at 2.5. That puts him at about $6M a year (which is what he made last year). There is not a lot of upside potential there so giving him a premium would not be necessary, but his consistency is probably worth an adjustment to say $8M per year. No one (except Dayton Moore and especially not Terry Ryan) is going to give more than a 2 year contract to someone who is consistent but with limited upside. My guess would be 2 years for around $16M or $17M, and maybe an option for a 3rd year based on innings pitched or some other benchmark. He could get more but it would probably be a one-year deal for about $10M.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    We've done this dance before and, IMO, being linked means nothing. It might not be as easy as I think, but other teams sure seem to be having an easier time than the Twins make it out to be.

    I believe that the Twins either a) arne't making offers or b) aren't offering as much as other teams. I don't think it's c) that they're making the best offer and it's getting turned down.
    A 3/39 as a starting point in last years values for contracts was not off based for Buehrle. Believe what you want, keep repeating it enough ....

  17. #77
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    A 3/39 as a starting point in last years values for contracts was not off based for Buehrle. Believe what you want, keep repeating it enough ....
    If by a starting point you mean short by 1 year and $19M, then ya..."not off based."

    However, even if we make the leap of faith that there ever was such an offer from the Twins, that actually sounds pretty "off based" to me. Believe what you want...keep repeating it enough.

  18. #78
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Last year they tried to get Buehrle, this year they were linked to Dempster. It is not as simple as you make it out to be.
    Care to fill us in on the details of those negotiations? How hard did they try? Things can get pretty simple when you put enough dollars on the table, but by all means, fill us in on how those went. You seem to hold that level of evidence to others.

    As a very thoughtful poster said here, at some point the simplest answer is the right one. And quite frankly, this team just doesn't like handing out big FA contracts. It doesn't like handing out big contracts to pitchers period. All this spin overlooks the simplest answer.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Care to fill us in on the details of those negotiations? How hard did they try? Things can get pretty simple when you put enough dollars on the table, but by all means, fill us in on how those went. You seem to hold that level of evidence to others.

    As a very thoughtful poster said here, at some point the simplest answer is the right one. And quite frankly, this team just doesn't like handing out big FA contracts. It doesn't like handing out big contracts to pitchers period. All this spin overlooks the simplest answer.
    1. Buehrle's agent did a fine job of getting his client a fourth year. No other reported offers were for more than three.
    2. Evidence. If you don't have to have a single shred of evidence to back what you say and chastise me for calling you on it then I can take the reports of what Buehrle was offered and say what it means. 13 million per year offer was a better offer than anybody not named CJ Wilson got. You can look that up. Miami was so damn proud of that contract that they gave him away. A reasonable contract you should get a prospect to three back.
    3. But the team does hand out large contracts. Mauer's contract to keep him from free agency was a discount. So wasn't Morneau"s.
    Pavano given his age got a huge one. He was a free agent at the time and ranked by many sites as the second best pitcher available that year. And 3/39 for Buerhle last year, though outspent, was a huge offer for last year's market.

  20. #80
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    1. Buehrle's agent did a fine job of getting his client a fourth year. No other reported offers were for more than three.
    I thought you were playing the "unless it's reported we can't make assumptions" game with everyone else? Why do you insist on having different standards for your assumptions than others? It's beyond annoying at this point. I have to believe you're intentionally using this hypocrisy to troll.

    3. But the team does hand out large contracts. Mauer's contract to keep him from free agency was a discount. So wasn't Morneau"s.
    Wait! Those guys pitch and we didn't use them last year! Oh, wait, you didn't read what I wrote. Should've seen that coming given your recent trolling. I won't address the other nonsense - Pavano was a huge contract to a pitcher? Seriously? That's shameful nonsense.

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