Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 84

Thread: Article: Drew Butera and Defensive Prowess

  1. #1
    Owner Big-Leaguer Parker Hageman's Avatar
    Posts
    996
    Like
    1
    Liked 38 Times in 25 Posts
    Blog Entries
    201

    Article: Drew Butera and Defensive Prowess

    @OverTheBaggy

  2. #2
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,168
    Like
    19
    Liked 197 Times in 125 Posts
    Another great breakdown, Drew better frame that article, his agent couldn't have done a better service for him.

    While it is a compelling case to retain Butera, it seems to me all the other 3rd catchers that are released yearly, are generally regarded as having no offense but "defensive prowess." There will proabably be a dozen guys like Butera waiting to catch on with a team over the next couple of months.

  3. #3
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    5,928
    Like
    43
    Liked 203 Times in 107 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    I think that we have to stop looking at him as the #3 catcher. He is the backup catcher on most days. It allows Gardy to keep Mauer and Doumit in the lineup most days. He was up last year for all but about a month, and he only had about 120 plate appearances. $700,000 is closer to the league-minimum of $480,000 than it is the $1 million.

    I like looking at pop time. I think framing pitches is important. I don't think it leads to wins, at least not many. I think controlling the run game is important. He's got a strong arm. I think that, for the role he was used in in 2012, he's worth that amount.

    I also think that Chris Herrmann will be more ready later in the year. He'll be able to play a bit more as he can catch, but he can also play the outfield well, and he played in the infield in college. He can provide more versatility while not matching Butera's defense.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
    Posts
    974
    Like
    4
    Liked 117 Times in 52 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    I think that we have to stop looking at him as the #3 catcher. He is the backup catcher on most days. It allows Gardy to keep Mauer and Doumit in the lineup most days. He was up last year for all but about a month, and he only had about 120 plate appearances. $700,000 is closer to the league-minimum of $480,000 than it is the $1 million.

    I like looking at pop time. I think framing pitches is important. I don't think it leads to wins, at least not many. I think controlling the run game is important. He's got a strong arm. I think that, for the role he was used in in 2012, he's worth that amount.

    I also think that Chris Herrmann will be more ready later in the year. He'll be able to play a bit more as he can catch, but he can also play the outfield well, and he played in the infield in college. He can provide more versatility while not matching Butera's defense.
    Don't you think Hermann is ready to take on the emergency catcher role now?

    Personally I think the Twins love Butera for some reason, and Hermann will be traded before he supplants Butera.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    7,042
    Like
    1,207
    Liked 682 Times in 439 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    I don't place much faith in "Framing Pitches" to influence Strikes and Balls. I have serious doubts how often the Ump actually sees the glove.

    Standing behind the catcher will block the view of the glove quite often.

    However, I do believe in Pop to Pop time as being important and more so... I believe that the ability of a catcher to call a game, handle his battery mate, QB the cuts, block and handle pitches out of the zone, defensive leadership and the prep work done by catchers in the film room is huge.

    A Solid Defensive Catcher plays a big role on a baseball team. However, I admit that I don't know how Butera does on all of these important areas in comparison to Mauer and Doumit or others around the league.

  6. #6
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    5,928
    Like
    43
    Liked 203 Times in 107 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Don't you think Hermann is ready to take on the emergency catcher role now?

    Personally I think the Twins love Butera for some reason, and Hermann will be traded before he supplants Butera.
    If he had to come up, I think Herrmann would be alright. He's not young, but he has enough talent that you don't want him sitting 5 days a week either. It also doesn't hurt to get him 200 plate appearances in Rochester, see where he's at and make a decision on Butera/Herrmann in June/July.

    There are plenty of reasons to like Butera, defensive prowess probably being the biggest one. If Herrmann is ready during the season, it's not like it will hurt the Twins to eat a couple-hundred thousand dollars. It's hardly over league minimum.

  7. #7
    Owner Big-Leaguer Parker Hageman's Avatar
    Posts
    996
    Like
    1
    Liked 38 Times in 25 Posts
    Blog Entries
    201
    I don't place much faith in "Framing Pitches" to influence Strikes and Balls. I have serious doubts how often the Ump actually sees the glove.
    It goes beyond just the glove. In Fast's piece, he provided examples of Molina and Doumit. Molina was stoic during his reception while Doumit's head bobbed significantly. In theory, even that minor movement influences the umpire's decision.

    I think framing pitches is important. I don't think it leads to wins, at least not many.
    Not many wins as in you don't believe 1 to 2 wins that Fast's research says is important or that 1 to 2 wins via framing isn't achievable?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
    Posts
    974
    Like
    4
    Liked 117 Times in 52 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    If he had to come up, I think Herrmann would be alright. He's not young, but he has enough talent that you don't want him sitting 5 days a week either. It also doesn't hurt to get him 200 plate appearances in Rochester, see where he's at and make a decision on Butera/Herrmann in June/July.

    There are plenty of reasons to like Butera, defensive prowess probably being the biggest one. If Herrmann is ready during the season, it's not like it will hurt the Twins to eat a couple-hundred thousand dollars. It's hardly over league minimum.
    My point is that the Twins don't want Hermann to take Butera's role. If the job is start 40 games, get less than 200 ABs, and the rest of the time sit on the bench in case someone gets hurt, there's no reason Hermann couldn't do that right now.

    But the Twins know that Hermann is good enough to be a second catcher, maybe even a starting catcher on some teams. He's more valuable to teams that don't have a Mauer and a Doumit in front of him for playing time.

  9. #9
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
    Posts
    3,638
    Like
    877
    Liked 627 Times in 242 Posts
    Not nearly enough prowess to overcome this....


    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  10. #10
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,232
    Like
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I don't place much faith in "Framing Pitches" to influence Strikes and Balls. I have serious doubts how often the Ump actually sees the glove.

    Standing behind the catcher will block the view of the glove quite often.

    However, I do believe in Pop to Pop time as being important and more so... I believe that the ability of a catcher to call a game, handle his battery mate, QB the cuts, block and handle pitches out of the zone, defensive leadership and the prep work done by catchers in the film room is huge.

    A Solid Defensive Catcher plays a big role on a baseball team. However, I admit that I don't know how Butera does on all of these important areas in comparison to Mauer and Doumit or others around the league.
    Have you ever umpired? I've done it on and off, mostly on, for over 25 years...I see the glove every time. Your view is grooved in between the batter and the catcher, full view. Back in the day, umpires positioned themselves right behind the catcher, so it was hard to see the glove on a low pitch, but framing is usually more important on the edges than up and down anyway.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 01-18-2013 at 11:34 AM.

  11. #11
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    6,701
    Like
    33
    Liked 786 Times in 428 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Sure, Butera is crushed by wRC+, but where does he rank on wAC+?*

    *winning attitude created

  12. #12
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    7,042
    Like
    1,207
    Liked 682 Times in 439 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Hageman View Post
    It goes beyond just the glove. In Fast's piece, he provided examples of Molina and Doumit. Molina was stoic during his reception while Doumit's head bobbed significantly. In theory, even that minor movement influences the umpire's decision.
    I can't recall if it was Fast's Piece that I read. I did read an article on the art of framing pitches a while back. I came away with more questions than answes in the article I read. I don't know if it's clear how the difference in a strike or a ball called in indvidual at bats can be quantified.

    Anyway... I'm not discounting framing totally... Just personally... I question it. I think the ump has made his mind up at the crossing of the plate.

    I do agree that a loud catcher could break some ties the wrong way on borderline calls. Enough to make a difference... I'm not so sure.

    That's just my thoughts... nothing more... nothing less...

    What I'd like to see is Strikes and Ball data per catcher. What was the Twins pitching staff percentage of strikes thrown with each catcher. If that data produces some striking differences... We may have something to look into furthur.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    4,610
    Like
    512
    Liked 214 Times in 147 Posts
    The question should be....is his defense so good that it offsets his offense, more or less than Herrmann?

  14. #14
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    6,701
    Like
    33
    Liked 786 Times in 428 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The question should be....is his defense so good that it offsets his offense, more or less than Herrmann?
    Less. Less. LESS.

    People who believe otherwise need to take another look at Snepp's screenshot. Butera is historically bad with the stick. It would be hard to overcome that deficit if he was not only an above-average catcher but also pitched the ball to himself at a league-average clip.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
    Posts
    7,042
    Like
    1,207
    Liked 682 Times in 439 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Have you ever umpired? I've done it on and off, mostly on, for over 25 years...I see the glove every time. You're grooved in between the batter and the catcher, full view. Back in the day, umpires positioned themselves right behind the catcher, so it was hard to see the glvoe on a low pitch, but framing is usually more important on the edges than up and down anyway.
    I do umpire... Not very good at it... I admit... I know that I'm supposed to watch the ball into the glove. Maybe it's my positioning... but seeing the glove isn't always possible and when I do see the glove... My mind is made up at the crossing of the plate.

    Just for clarification... I'm not going to use my experience as a guide for the MLB Umpire. Apple and Oranges. I Ump just to help out at the high school level.

  16. #16
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,232
    Like
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I do umpire... Not very good at it... I admit... I know that I'm supposed to watch the ball into the glove. Maybe it's my positioning... but seeing the glove isn't always possible and when I do see the glove... My mind is made up at the crossing of the plate.

    Just for clarification... I'm not going to use my experience as a guide for the MLB Umpire. Apple and Oranges. I Ump just to help out at the high school level.
    Doesn't matter, the duties of the umpire are the same. I've only umpired as high as lower level colleges myself, but it's the same job. Done the same way, same positioning. If you can't see the glove, there's a positioning problem. That's all I'm saying.

    And yes, you make your decision on where the ball crosses the plate, but if that pitcher is consistently hitting the glove without it having to move...over and over and over again...he'll normally get the benefit of the doubt by many umpires
    Last edited by ThePuck; 01-18-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  17. #17
    Owner Big-Leaguer Parker Hageman's Avatar
    Posts
    996
    Like
    1
    Liked 38 Times in 25 Posts
    Blog Entries
    201
    Less. Less. LESS.

    People who believe otherwise need to take another look at Snepp's screenshot.
    Instinctually I agree with that. That said, I still circle back to the fact that we do not measure defensive contributions of a catcher very well. So, for a back up catcher, is it possible to overcome that unbelievably bad offensive performance with some defensive value? I'm of the belief that, yes, defensive catchers have plenty of value but in the specific case of Butera, I don't think he compensates enough to make up for that deficit.

    My main point is I want someone smarter than me to come up with some push-button analyses that helps tell me how good he is at framing, controlling the run game, etc...

  18. #18
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,383
    Like
    250
    Liked 194 Times in 111 Posts
    Blog Entries
    9
    As long as the alternative is Doumit, and as long as Doumit keeps dipping his head on borderline pitches and losing strike calls, he is a serious framing liability. Bobbing your head would seem like a simple thing to correct but either Doumit isn't aware he does it (because no one's pointed it out to him), or he's tried but just can't stop himself doing it. And Butera doesn't do it. This isn't a staff that can groove fastballs down the middle of the plate. They will need to get borderline calls. Especially Worley, who relies so heavily on called strike 3's.

    And, as run scoring goes down, the value of a stolen base goes up, and the risk of getting caught goes down. Ergo, teams ran more in 2012 and I would expect them to run even more next year.

    Incidentally, the Twins would do well to run a little more themselves.

    The Changing Caught-Stealing Calculus | FanGraphs Baseball

  19. #19
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    5,928
    Like
    43
    Liked 203 Times in 107 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    "But the Twins know that Hermann is good enough to be a second catcher, maybe even a starting catcher on some teams. He's more valuable to teams that don't have a Mauer and a Doumit in front of him for playing time."

    Based on? He had a good year at AA last year. I'm a big Herrmann fan, but I see no harm in him getting a couple of months in AAA. I am wondering what teams he would be starting for... and also, if you believe he is that good, why would you want him to come up to play one in four games?

  20. #20
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    5,928
    Like
    43
    Liked 203 Times in 107 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Hageman View Post
    Not many wins as in you don't believe 1 to 2 wins that Fast's research says is important or that 1 to 2 wins via framing isn't achievable?
    I don't believe it means 1-2 wins. I definitely understand the value of framing as a person who has caught before. I'm not even saying it's wrong, but I don't buy that is factors into games won and lost unless the ump is terrible. But to be honest, I still struggle with trusting most defensive metrics.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.