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Thread: Spend money just to spend money?

  1. #141
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The truth behind MLB's threat to move or contract is unknowable, I think. The TC happens to be very comparable to TB and Miami in terms of market size. And if the Florida teams have proven anything, it is that A. a winning club in a new market is not guaranteed to be a payer into revenue sharing, and recently, B. a new stadium in a new market doesn't guarantee the team is a payer into the revenue sharing either. There are going to be new debts, fees, and taxes associated with a new park. So if fans aren't providing to cash to pay those things, then the proper move from ownership's perspective is to tank, as Loria did, and maximize revenue sharing income. It can easily be a swing of 40 million dollars or so, per year.

    The thing that ultimately drives profit is fan loyalty. That takes years to build, and the Twins had been at it for 40 years when MLB started threatening to contract. So I am dubious that it would be so quick to throw that away for the risk of an even smaller market like Memphis or LV.
    I do agree... The equity they have built up would be tough to throw away. It's also very difficult to move a team politically inside MLB itself because the entire country has already been divided up. If the Twins wanted to move to Portland... Well... the Portland market has already been claimed by Seattle. The Mariners won't allow it unless Selig steps in and says to the Mariners that it's going to happen. The Owners would most likely band together to support Seattle in that case because they don't want the Royals moving into their territory.

    As for being comparable to Tampa Bay and Miami... I wouldn't use the DMA Rankings as a guide. It will give you a false impression...

    That's the Designated Market Area. You have to factor in all the other markets as well. Atlanta, St. Louis and Seattle are regional teams for example. Every team has additional markets to add to the purse. Markets like Orlando... Memphis, Nashville, Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham... Sacremento... Buffalo... Columbus...

    The Twins have Fargo and Rochester and this is why the Twins are considered a small market team. The actual DMA doesn't provide an accurate picture. Tampa Bay is a low level team mostly because of the stadium and fan support.

    The Twins had a crappy deal with the dome and very little extra revenue to show for it. If Memphis came a calling with a new stadium and MLB said OK... We will smooth it over with the Cardinals and Braves... Market Size wouldn't have stopped them. The Tennesee Twins could have had Memphis and Nashville together which equal the Twins Cities, plus the rest of Tennesee. Knoxville is bigger than Fargo.

    All in all... It's complicated. I believe the Stadium was necessary for retaining the team for the long run. Eventually... They would have left. It just may have taken awhile.

  2. #142
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    All in all... It's complicated. I believe the Stadium was necessary for retaining the team for the long run. Eventually... They would have left. It just may have taken awhile.
    You won't find many cities willing to build a stadium without a pro team already present there. I know it is illegal to do it in LA, which is why the Vikings threat to move there was bogus, incidentally (LA couldn't legally appropriate money to build a park without a team, and the NFL wouldn't sell the team unless there was a park built - and Zigi wouldn't sell the team unless he was paid for its future worth in LA, not its current value in MSP).

    I suspect that ultimately the MLB, and the NFL, would come around to building their own (scaled down) parks, had the politicians not blinked. At least if you build your own park you can capitalize it, add it to the overall value of the franchise, instead of leasing it from the MBA. Considering the deal that the Twins settled with, whereby they don't own the property but still paid for a majority of it, I just don't buy the threat that MLB would have even contracted, let alone moved.

  3. #143
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    You won't find many cities willing to build a stadium without a pro team already present there. I know it is illegal to do it in LA, which is why the Vikings threat to move there was bogus, incidentally (LA couldn't legally appropriate money to build a park without a team, and the NFL wouldn't sell the team unless there was a park built - and Zigi wouldn't sell the team unless he was paid for its future worth in LA, not its current value in MSP).

    I suspect that ultimately the MLB, and the NFL, would come around to building their own (scaled down) parks, had the politicians not blinked. At least if you build your own park you can capitalize it, add it to the overall value of the franchise, instead of leasing it from the MBA. Considering the deal that the Twins settled with, whereby they don't own the property but still paid for a majority of it, I just don't buy the threat that MLB would have even contracted, let alone moved.
    There's a lot of hurdles to clear... No doubt about it... As for not many Cities willing... I think quite a few would step up to the plate in some form or fashion but all it takes is one. When you have one... it can be taken for granted... When you don't have one... You have one way to get one... Intice someone to move.

    Contraction... was a joke... Desperation for leverage in my opinion. Moving that would be hard... but it would have happened over time. Money makes the world go around.

  4. #144
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    As would I. Heck I'd be shocked if May starts a single MLB game ever. He was a RP prospect with the Phillies. Only when he came here did he become the next Cy Young in the wings.
    I respectfully disagree. I saw him pitch last year in New Britain, and he was lights out. Granted, one start, but of all the pitchers I saw on that trip (and I saw plenty) he was far and away the best. And AA is not that far from MLB.

  5. #145
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    There's a threshold where spending more money no longer translates into enough wins where it's palatable for management/ownership. There's diminishing returns on chasing wins with dollars. I get that. Everyone should get that.

    Maybe the Twins mismanaged that with Correa, and missed an opportunity to acquire a better asset, that's fair criticism.

    I think it's also fair that the Twins should be looking to acquire assets at below market costs no matter if it necessarily helps compete or not in 2013, because those affordable assets might become tradeable assets. However, we generally accept that market costs for free agency tend to be overpayments (when compared to extensions and arbitration), and thus, acquiring such tradeable/affordable assets may not be possible. And again, spending the money might neither result in enough wins or in players that could be traded for other players.

    I have no notion that saving money today will result in money to spend tomorrow, but I also think its reckless to recommend spending money that doesn't result in tangible competitiveness either now or in the future. I do believe that this kind of 'goodwill' from management to ownership MAY make it more palatable for ownership to go over budget when there's a real competitive competitive advantage to be gained. (I'm thinking of Kenny Rodgers here).

    All this said, it's really hard for me to get too worked about the FO not spending more money.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 01-15-2013 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    An ulterior motive to making large profits? For shame, this is a business, there should be no imperative to winning a title at obscene profit's expense.

    The Twins had a elderly owner in the same situation a few years back. All he did was leverage the threat of losing the Twins into a new stadium. He also only needed to pay $125 million for his $545 million ballpark while Illitch pitched in $185 million to his $300 million ballpark.
    First, Detroit isn't making a profit. According to Forbes their operating revenue has been in the red the last few years.

    Second, Carl Pohlad has already won 2 WS titles so he wasn't as desperate as Ilitch. Hopefully at some point Jim wants to create his own legacy and not just bask in Carl's.

    That being said of course I would like the Twins' to open the purse strings and spend some more money on quality players. I would like the payroll to be around $100M.

  7. #147
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Teams can run deficits because their franchise equity is appreciating at an insane rate right now. Even the Twins have gained value at over 40% annually since 2002.

    ē MLB Minnesota Twins franchise value 2002-2012 | Statistic

  8. #148
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    I swear, counties and lawmakers across the country would be smart to bring in Boras to negotiate with owners when they come begging for public money. Just landed Soriano a 2/28m.

    “Everybody else is below even though revenue is up 200 percent and franchise values are up 300, 400 percent. What we’re seeing is not many teams are spending on payrolls despite the fact that their profits are extraordinary. You’d expect teams to have their highest payrolls, but they don’t.”

  9. #149
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I think it's also fair that the Twins should be looking to acquire assets at below market costs no matter if it necessarily helps compete or not in 2013, because those affordable assets might become tradeable assets.
    Right now, a month before people start reporting, is precisely the time to do that. Marcum and Johnson are likely available for less than what they would have been previously provided you are willing to take a risk.

    Everyone gets what you've said. There is no debate about magically making this team a contender. The problem is you not only hurt your talent level on the field, you hurt your standing publicly when you boast so loudly and flop so futilely and then pretend as though you've improved 2013 to have competitive games in September. Ownership might want to prioritize fan apathy over diminishing returns.

    Especially when they're still drawing a profit regardless.

  10. #150
    I think Jason Tyner is available, I wonder if we could coax him out of retirement for an incentive laden deal.....maybe he can pitch for us?
    Last edited by JASONTYNER; 01-15-2013 at 06:01 PM.

  11. #151
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I have no notion that saving money today will result in money to spend tomorrow, but I also think its reckless to recommend spending money that doesn't result in tangible competitiveness either now or in the future.
    Who's to say it doesn't? Are you so firmly convinced that with a quality arm added to the top of the rotation, this team would stand absolutely no chance of competing and at least keeping things interesting into September? I'm not. In fact, I'm not totally convinced the current roster can't keep things interesting, but I'm quite confident that if they do they'll be wishing they'd added more of a legitimate asset to the rotation during the offseason. I don't see what purpose is served by opting for table scraps and giving your starting corps none of the immediate help it so desperately needed (save Worley) despite ample funds.

    With the pieces they have on offense and in the bullpen, the Twins have too much talent on their roster to just wave the white flag before the season starts, in my opinion. Maybe that's where I differ from a lot of you.

  12. #152
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting for someone to offer a good reason why it's necessarily bad to "spend money just to spend money."

    What, exactly, does it hurt, other than someone's sense of fiscal responsibility?

    How does it hurt this year's team? Next year's team? 2015's team?

    As far as I can tell, the only thing it hurts is the Pohlad brothers' pocketbooks. And quite frankly, I don't think it'd hurt all that much, nor do I care if it does.

  13. #153
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    We all understand that it's a business. I personally think it's bad business to blatantly lie to your customers and to refuse to invest in giving them a better product. Do you really believe they'll be operating in the red if they spend over $80M? I didn't realize Target Field had dropped back down to Metrodome revenues after three years. The notion is especially ridiculous when you consider the TV money that's about to be dropping on them.
    Remember that one time that Target Field was built with only private funds and no money from the public?

  14. #154
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    And since 1998, the Twins have had a higher payroll than Detroit only 4 times. That speaks more about Detroit's past incompetence at putting together a winning team than it does the team's willingness to spend money to improve the product.
    Or that spending money doesn't necessarily guarantee improving the product.

  15. #155
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    I agree that spending money just to spend money is wrong. Some just like to rant about payroll being lower w/o looking at how the Twins could have actually have spent that money.

    Where the Twins FO have failed so far this offseason is adding a couple of players on shortish contracts where they wouldn't be blocking a young player. Other than a few exceptions (like the cubans) teams can't divert unspent MLB budgets to int'l FA's or draft picks. Bringing in an average RP'er (like Frasor or several others) adds an asset that can be traded or make it possible to trade Burton and/or Perkins. The Twins weren't even linked to a MI this offseason.

    I wanted them to get the best pitcher that 3/35 could have bought because the fact is that it's highly unlikely that the Twins even come close to a 100M payroll in the next couple of years. If the pitcher busts then at least the contract is off the books in a couple of years and didn't prevent the Twins from signing anyone. It's also possible that the Twins can trade that pitcher near the end and pick up a prospect. Instead they got Correia and Pelfrey.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to offer a good reason why it's necessarily bad to "spend money just to spend money."

    What, exactly, does it hurt, other than someone's sense of fiscal responsibility?

    How does it hurt this year's team? Next year's team? 2015's team?

    As far as I can tell, the only thing it hurts is the Pohlad brothers' pocketbooks. And quite frankly, I don't think it'd hurt all that much, nor do I care if it does.
    If it good to spend money to spend money then there should be no complaints in the signing of Kevin Correia. They spent money to spend money. They should spend more BTW. The available talent pool is getting small.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    First, Detroit isn't making a profit. According to Forbes their operating revenue has been in the red the last few years.

    Second, Carl Pohlad has already won 2 WS titles so he wasn't as desperate as Ilitch. Hopefully at some point Jim wants to create his own legacy and not just bask in Carl's.

    That being said of course I would like the Twins' to open the purse strings and spend some more money on quality players. I would like the payroll to be around $100M.
    At 140 million the twins would still make a profit....

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Teams can run deficits because their franchise equity is appreciating at an insane rate right now. Even the Twins have gained value at over 40% annually since 2002.

    • MLB Minnesota Twins franchise value 2002-2012 | Statistic
    Assuming the intention is to sell in the near future...

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Who's to say it doesn't? Are you so firmly convinced that with a quality arm added to the top of the rotation, this team would stand absolutely no chance of competing and at least keeping things interesting into September? I'm not. In fact, I'm not totally convinced the current roster can't keep things interesting, but I'm quite confident that if they do they'll be wishing they'd added more of a legitimate asset to the rotation during the offseason. I don't see what purpose is served by opting for table scraps and giving your starting corps none of the immediate help it so desperately needed (save Worley) despite ample funds.

    With the pieces they have on offense and in the bullpen, the Twins have too much talent on their roster to just wave the white flag before the season starts, in my opinion. Maybe that's where I differ from a lot of you.
    Adding a quality arm would result in tangible competitivess. The debate may be what is the lowest threshold for a quality arm. Marcum, yes. Lohse, not for a draft pick. Blanton? Jurrgens? Slowey? At this point the options get thin.

  20. #160
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    In the spanish alphabet there are extra letters, extra accsents (punctuations), when i use this symbol ( i am pressing the number nine.
    not shifting up , but simply the number nine.once again let me say i apoligise....we are all twins fans
    hope we get a good season soon , have a nice day ...
    Your problem is not Spanish punctuation but rather awful punctuation. Everybody makes mistakes typing. I frequently forget words because my typing is slower than my thinking and I'm not a bad typer. Your problem is long, run on sentences separated by 10 commas. If you do use periods then you don't use spaces and capital letters. This is basically the equivalent of my elementary age English students in Taiwan. Or it's like a string of text messages connected by commas. Your spelling is not very good either.

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