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Thread: Is 2 for 4 a bad thing?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post

    In the rule 5 draft Mr. Ryan chose Pressly (1 of 4 players i had an eye on)and while i liked this pick, .
    So we have you to blame since you must be one of Terry Ryan's advisors...

    If the Twins were gonna draft anyone in the Rule 5 draft they should have grabbed a pitcher who can actually throw heat. Not a guy like Pressly.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Imo the only critical thing coming out of this offseason is that they made a mediocre attempt at improving in 2013 and have concentrated their efforts on 2014/2015. It's frustrating for sure but it's the reality of being a terrible team that had very few young players in its core.

    Complaining about DFA pickups and rule 5 is silly.
    See above in this thread for just a few of the potential Rule 5 and DFA misses, let alone some of the signable and/or flippable FAs, most of which are misses that are clearly better than some that the Twins project to place on the 2013 roster. Rome wasn't built in a day, one man's roster spot dilemma is another man's opportunity knocking, gathering pieces on the cheap, especially in their current horrendous situation should be an ongoing process, IOW, "concentrating efforts" on 2014/15 should have started even before season-end, October 3, 2012. If they would just admit to themselves and the public that this was 1984 redux (right in the middle of a 5-year run at improvement towards mediocrity), I think the fans would accept it and the prospects would get fast-tracked by a year or so. The impression the Twins are giving, especially considering the 2 big trades w/o obvious immediate replacements for them, is Mr Subliminal Man-esque: "We're making every effort ("extra tee times") at putting a competitive ("what's that No. 1 draft pick going to cost us in 2014?") on the field (gold mine) in 2013" ("Don't wake me up until 2015 rolls around, let's see, we'll still have to pay Mauer his $23M but... only have to spend another $23M for the rest of the guys, combined....")

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    Doumit and Willingham were better than Cuddy and Kubel for less money. The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone. We are in trasition between groups of players and this year (while hopfully better) is a year of finding out what we have. That's why Hicks needs to start in Minnesota if he has a decent spring training, and we needed to move outfielders to create spots. Parmalee has to get enough AB's to see if he can contribute and settle what the Twins need to do with Morneau. It's nice to spend other people's money, but rarely do any of us get the chance. Kansas City and Pittsburg have been 20 -25 year rebuilding plans, so hopefully TR will be able to fix the issues.

    And they did nothing but pocket that saved money instead of using it to address other issues. Those moves would have been much more appreciated if they took that saved money and did something with it instead of them cutting 18M off payroll. So, I'm sorry, I don't give him extra credit for that. Those moves still didn't fix the lineup, the health of our #1, #3 and our #5 hitter 'fixed' it.

    Additionally, you say 'The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone.'

    Really? Not by anyone? It was a bad rotation in 2011, how did we figure it'd be better with practically the same starting pitchers? With the addition of Marquis?
    Last edited by ThePuck; 01-09-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  4. #24
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    The Twins offense was better, but I am not sure it was fixed. They moved from 13th in the AL in runs scored to 10th, you may choose how to assess that at your leisure.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    > for ! single A player.

    I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.
    Not to mention that Span has not played a full season since 2010 with his concussion effects.
    I also never knew until today that Trevor May will be nothing more than bullpen help.
    I just hope this thread continues to grow to further my Twins knowledge.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    One might argue that that itself is worthy of complaint (the need vs. talent/ceiling debate).

    Buxton especially. He is so young and so raw, and Appel is so close to a sure thing and fills such a pressing need. For the Twins to pass on an asset like that, who could have been had for Feldman-money, might have been the start of the punting of 2013, now that I look back at it.
    So when will the Twins ever fast track a player to the majors? Why are we the only organization that has to wait 4-7 YRS for a prospect to develop? So many guys go from Prospect to Suspect in this organization.

  7. #27
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    If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    Doumit and Willingham were better than Cuddy and Kubel for less money. The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone.
    The replacement players were good gets, but they only replaced part of what left, not filling all the holes, still carried a 3rd Catcher which they said they were not going to do again, not even having a set OF on opening day, Doumit made Kubel and Cuddyer look like Gold Glovers and Willingham was only slightly better, Carroll was supposed to be a utility player who ended up getting a career-high in ABs at age 38.

    Regarding the SPs, come on, the Twins FO was filled with nothing but dread about the strong likelihood of the worst-case scenario regarding injury history and general suckage and to the positive, simply unexpectedly lucked out in getting Diamond to be the one guy who performed at a major league level. Most fans were aware that in the 2011-12 offseason, the Twins needed to desperately upgrade the Starters from the available Free Agents or make a trade, instead, the Twins chose to go the other way and cut payroll, in a big way... and gave you Marquis as succor for the suckers.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?
    Since they appear to be playing for 2015, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and surmise that the Twins would have "rewarded him" by getting the Rule 2 avoidance call-up....in 2014.... & then sell the public that they might be pushing him at "only" the age of 22 (he would turn 23 in August of '14).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The Twins offense was better, but I am not sure it was fixed. They moved from 13th in the AL in runs scored to 10th, you may choose how to assess that at your leisure.
    Runs don't take ball park into consideration. They went from a team 84 OPS+ to 99. Their position players, as a team, went from 0 WAR to 22 WAR. They improved their offense, despite losing Cuddy and Kubel. That was the main question mark heading into last season.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?
    You realize that Mauer actually had fewer minor league games before he was called up, right? You realize the Twins have had several players go up several levels in one year, including Baker, Garza, Slowey, Liriano and Hendriks?

    The Twins rely on their minor leagues more than most teams so you'll get guys like Plouffe who need 6+ years before he's ready. Most teams give up on those guys. But the Twins have pushed their better prospects when they have them.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    The replacement players were good gets, but they only replaced part of what left, not filling all the holes, still carried a 3rd Catcher which they said they were not going to do again, not even having a set OF on opening day, Doumit made Kubel and Cuddyer look like Gold Glovers and Willingham was only slightly better, Carroll was supposed to be a utility player who ended up getting a career-high in ABs at age 38.
    I'm not sure how much of this is really valid. Last year, we had issues with RF until Revere took it over but I'm not sure that isn't fairly normal with most teams. The Twins wanted Carroll to hold one MI spot (and he had a decent year) and hoped a guy like Dozier or Plouffe could step up. Plouffe ended up taking over third and had a nice run until his injury. I suspect we'll see something similar this year with CF and RF as the Twins hope that young guys like Hicks, Benson, Parmelee or Arcia step up and take it.

    As for last year, however you want to criticize the position players, they ended up being pretty good. Their team WAR was 4th or 5th in the AL (depending on which WAR you use).

  13. #33
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    I neither said the offense (offense, not position players) was fixed or not. I said it was improved, and that others could decide if it was fixed or not. I offered no value judgement on that.
    Lighten up Francis....

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    You realize that Mauer actually had fewer minor league games before he was called up, right? You realize the Twins have had several players go up several levels in one year, including Baker, Garza, Slowey, Liriano and Hendriks?

    The Twins rely on their minor leagues more than most teams so you'll get guys like Plouffe who need 6+ years before he's ready. Most teams give up on those guys. But the Twins have pushed their better prospects when they have them.
    I'd call the Mauer/Trout comparative scenario a draw. Both called up in their 4th minor league season, both 21, Mauer 284 games played, Trout 286. These are 2 very special players.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    This defense of management explains your moniker- firing the messenger, indeed.

    Rule 5 pitchers? Of course it's a crapshoot. Scott Diamond comes to mind. Watch out for Josh Fields in Houston. Ivan Nova would be the Twins ace right now. RA Dickey ring a bell? Those 4 would be a pretty decent rotation, throw in a Kyle Lobstein and Randy Wells as competitors for the number 5 man. Not bad for a crapshoot.
    Josh Fields and Randy Wells were never an option for the Twins to draft in the Rule 5 draft. Lobstien has not pitched above AA. All other teams passed on Nova in 2008 as they all had a chance to claim him when San Diego let him go. He had not pitched above high A ball at that time. . Josh Fields has never started in professional baseball.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I neither said the offense (offense, not position players) was fixed or not. I said it was improved, and that others could decide if it was fixed or not. I offered no value judgement on that.
    The offense was improved, not fixed, and now there are some major question marks, as well as holes that need to be replaced, that apparently the club is going to ignore and be content to play with the cards they're holding. I am all in favor of giving Hicks, Arcia and Benson decent shots at some significant playing time, call-up dependent on ST performances. Right now, the Twins have left themselves with Hicks as the only legitimate option as leadoff man ( as much a fan as I am, it would be hard watching the offense as it would take an inevitable, major step backwards with Dozier, Mastro, Escobar and Florimon sporting their combined MLB OBP of <.300 in the #1 spot in the order for 162 games.)

    I would hope that Rosario and Santana are physically 100% and gets a call-up at some point after slicing through 2 levels of minor league play.

    I wish they'd explore platooning Mauer at 3B, with Parmelee getting his reps at 1B and RF.

    Removing Butera from the offense would by itself represent a huge offensive upgrade.

    I hope Doumit and Willingham don't regress to their mean.

    I hope Morneau (finally) does.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Josh Fields and Randy Wells were never an option for the Twins to draft in the Rule 5 draft. Lobstien has not pitched above AA. All other teams passed on Nova in 2008 as they all had a chance to claim him when San Diego let him go. He had not pitched above high A ball at that time. . Josh Fields has never started in professional baseball.
    The topic was not what the Twins should or would be able to do--- but what was the exact "crapshoot" nature of Rule 5 pitchers in general and the supposition from the poster that the Rule 5 draft is a complete waste of time as there supposedly are never useful pitching prospects that come from it. I think I showed that it is at least theoretically possible to assemble a decent staff from scraps and certainly worth some time to explore the available options thoroughly, especially with an advantageously high set of picks (your case regarding Nova proves my point, there was something there, the Padres did in fact draft him, for whatever reason, they didn't have room for roster retention, so that the Yankees would later receive the full benefits from him). Lobstein and Lara seem like no-brainers at such a low cost of kicking the tires, as did Kehrer in the AAA draft. Lobstein had a very strong year at AA and is only 23 (unlike soft-tossing Pressly who bombed out as a starter at that level and is now projected as a reliever).

    Regarding Josh Fields, the Twins drafted about a half a dozen college "live arms"/closers/set-up men in June in hopes of possibly converting them to hard throwing starters. Fields filled that role at Georgia so he possibly fits experimenting with as a starter for a team in as weak a situation as the Twins are in.
    Last edited by jokin; 01-08-2013 at 09:53 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    See above in this thread for just a few of the potential Rule 5 and DFA misses, let alone some of the signable and/or flippable FAs, most of which are misses that are clearly better than some that the Twins project to place on the 2013 roster.
    Who says that they were better? Some guy on an internet forum?

    It wasn't so long ago that BS made a HORRIBLE mistake trading Bullock for a completely unimpressive Rule 5 pick. The Twins have made a lot of misses in Rule 5 but pretty much every pick is a miss so I'm not going to lose sleep over it. My only disappointment is about not willing to put any money into a halfway decent FA. Rule 5's, DFA's, NRI's are a complete crapshoot.

  19. #39
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    Josh Fields was an excellent pick. Of course he was #1 so he wasn't available for the Twins.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post

    . Rule 5's, DFA's, NRI's are a complete crapshoot.
    I wish I'd said that, oh wait...

    Let's face it, under the current ownership and management, the Twins aren't going to ever spend money on quality, higher-end, game-changing FAs, all the more important to create and/or upgrade the means to more consistently find the buried treasure from the various alternative means from which to stock the club with enough talent to compete like the Rays are forced to do. In Rule 5 in the past, they have hit on Santana and Diamond. On the international front, Sano and Kepler may or may not turn out to be big impact guys down the road. Darren Mastroianni might become one of the occasional DFAs that ends up becoming a keeper.

    If they aren't going to spend for proven talent, they have to redouble their efforts to identify and acquire more hidden nuggets of talent. What do they have to lose? The Twins were only one pick after Dan Uggla in 2005 in the Rule 5 draft. It is very arguable that Uggla might have put the Twins over the top more than once from 2006-10. Upgrading this area of informational knowledge is cheap compared to the 8 and 9 figure commitments and inherent risks required to secure top-end talent.


    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Who says that they were better? Some guy on an internet forum?
    Uhh, no, I'm fairly certain that stats and needs were the objective criteria; the player's performances speak for themselves.

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