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Thread: Neal: Twins won't overpay for average pitching

  1. #121
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    Darren Wolfson had reported that the Twins were in constant talks with multiple pitchers, but never made any of them an offer. Joe Blanton would have come here for 3 years, but the Twins refused to offer him anymore than they gave Correia.

  2. #122
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Yeah I will be freaking pissed if they fail to sign Marcum at 2 years/14-18 mil

  3. #123
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    Aren't the Twins still 15-17 million under last year's payroll?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    No need for personal insults,
    No personal insult exists in my post. When my 5 year old boy tells me he can't eat his veggies "because he can't", that's the analogy that came to mind when you insist the Twins can't sign free agents because the Twins aren't good enough to lure free agents. That argument, not you the poster, is juvenile.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reginald Maudling's Shin View Post
    No personal insult exists in my post. When my 5 year old boy tells me he can't eat his veggies "because he can't", that's the analogy that came to mind when you insist the Twins can't sign free agents because the Twins aren't good enough to lure free agents. That argument, not you the poster, is juvenile.
    That is your opinion. How it comes across is insulting. That you choose not to see it for what it is os your choice. You among the rest of them who attack still can not show where the losing mid market teams have signed a high ranked free agent. This off season where Toronto and KC have been trading to improve, there have been no post linking either team to offers to free agents that I can find. Surely if they were trying all means to improve there would be some news. There is none.

    A child not eating veggies because they can't is far different than a team wanting to sign players who do not want to play losing baseball.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The idea that the Twins couldn't improve their team because free agents wouldn''t sign here is one possible theory.

    It's a theory completely without evidence, contrary to history, and it defies rational thought, but it's one possible theory.

    This is laughable. What makes you think pitchers would actually want to come to MN right now besides a pitcher-friendly park? GG-caliber defense? Tons of run support? A recent trend of winning? The guys we've gotten this offseason have come out of necessity- guys coming off major surgeries who need a year to rebuild their value before their big payday, which will likely come elsewhere mind you. Not to mention Correia, who came only because his rotation spot is virtually guaranteed- something he couldn't have gotten elsewhere.

    It's safe to say most SP's of at least average quality did not want to sign here because they wanted to win. It would take a comparatively exorbitant amount of money (an amount the Twins would never shell out, and perhaps rightly so) to keep these guys from signing with contenders. That's why we have not landed the pitchers that many have wanted this offseason.

    Leaving money on the table to play for a winning team is not a new concept at all. It's not entirely irrational either. I specifically remember both Haren and Greinke citing their reason for signing was that they wanted to win, not earn. Though neither one really signed for a bargain, of course. It's not terribly difficult to extend this reasoning to guys like McCarthy, who signed with a team that was at least competitive the past couple years. I'd imagine Anibal Sanchez chose detroit over chicago because he wanted to win as well.

    The Twins would have to blow a SP (away with an offer) to get them to sign. The Twins aren't in the business of making that kind of offer. SP's aren't willing to sign here unless they are paid significantly above what they'd be earning elsewhere, barring a major surgery or just sucking in general. So yeah, the Twins can't improve because no SP of quality will sign here

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Richard View Post
    This is laughable. What makes you think pitchers would actually want to come to MN right now besides a pitcher-friendly park? GG-caliber defense? Tons of run support? A recent trend of winning? The guys we've gotten this offseason have come out of necessity- guys coming off major surgeries who need a year to rebuild their value before their big payday, which will likely come elsewhere mind you. Not to mention Correia, who came only because his rotation spot is virtually guaranteed- something he couldn't have gotten elsewhere.

    It's safe to say most SP's of at least average quality did not want to sign here because they wanted to win. It would take a comparatively exorbitant amount of money (an amount the Twins would never shell out, and perhaps rightly so) to keep these guys from signing with contenders. That's why we have not landed the pitchers that many have wanted this offseason.

    Leaving money on the table to play for a winning team is not a new concept at all. It's not entirely irrational either. I specifically remember both Haren and Greinke citing their reason for signing was that they wanted to win, not earn. Though neither one really signed for a bargain, of course. It's not terribly difficult to extend this reasoning to guys like McCarthy, who signed with a team that was at least competitive the past couple years. I'd imagine Anibal Sanchez chose detroit over chicago because he wanted to win as well.

    The Twins would have to blow a SP (away with an offer) to get them to sign. The Twins aren't in the business of making that kind of offer. SP's aren't willing to sign here unless they are paid significantly above what they'd be earning elsewhere, barring a major surgery or just sucking in general. So yeah, the Twins can't improve because no SP of quality will sign here
    You refuted your own arguement. "SPs won't sigh here unless..." Therefore make them an offer they can't refuse. It's much better to sign one quality FA pitcher that will be around for 3-5 years than Ryan's method of "lots of arms". He had plenty of arms last year--some of them weren't all that bad--and appear to be about the same as some that were signed. Let those in the system compete for a job--someone might actually be worthy. Diamond won a job last year--but his 2011 with the team did not indicate he would ever be a fixture in the rotation. Next year, pay up, and sign another FA pitcher and maybe trade for one like was done this offseason. Failing to pay up simply means that the Twins will be in the same situation next offseason--crying that they can't give their money away--while the few available quality pitchers sign with a different team.

  8. #128
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    Being a bad team can, and often does, make it a tougher sell. Some guys may value the chance to win more than money, and for that reason would not seriously consider a team like the Twins.

    However, I don't see how you can claim that NO free agents would sign here. The Cubs were on the verge of getting Sanchez before he went back to Detroit, and then managed to get E-Jax (the guy I was hoping the Twins would get).

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    Being a bad team can, and often does, make it a tougher sell. Some guys may value the chance to win more than money, and for that reason would not seriously consider a team like the Twins.

    However, I don't see how you can claim that NO free agents would sign here. The Cubs were on the verge of getting Sanchez before he went back to Detroit, and then managed to get E-Jax (the guy I was hoping the Twins would get).
    Never ever claimed no free agents would sign with mid sized pmarket losing teams, only top tier free agents wouldn't.
    Sanchez used the Cubs to get the deal out of Detroit.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highabove View Post
    1982 ???????
    That's what I was thinking. And 1999, too.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Never ever claimed no free agents would sign with mid sized pmarket losing teams, only top tier free agents wouldn't.
    Sanchez used the Cubs to get the deal out of Detroit.

    ---And I don't think anyone demanded a top-tier free agent. I, for one, would have been content with a second or third-tier free agent.

    You're right that guys like Greinke aren't going to give the Twins serious consideration. But surely, there are guys better than Correia who would have signed here for the right price.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    ---And I don't think anyone demanded a top-tier free agent. I, for one, would have been content with a second or third-tier free agent.

    You're right that guys like Greinke aren't going to give the Twins serious consideration. But surely, there are guys better than Correia who would have signed here for the right price.
    Twins Daily - Deep Starting Pitching Market Is A Lucky Break For Twins

    Read Thyrlos98's comments. Laugh at what they thought pitchers would get paid
    After you get past the Haren, Sanchez level I don't think it matters too much which pitcher you signed. They are all have concerns, issues, incomplete talent. If there are no concerns for Marcum's health he would also be in the top category. A 15-25 million 2 year contract would be a huge risk.

    With only one starting pitcher I wished I would have posted what I thought about Scott Baker. As they had so little he was better safe, signed, and overpaid than sorry. ?advanced" metrics would have said he was worth the money when reasonably healthy, That is why he got the contract
    Last edited by old nurse; 12-30-2012 at 01:57 AM.

  13. #133
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    If the Cubs (my second favorite team) go in on Marcum and get him, they will have gotten Jackson, Marcum, and Baker (and Feldman, who won't make it into the rotation at this rate). That's what I wanted the Twins to do, and those three would be had for at or under $30 million.

  14. #134
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    Thought I'd share a quote from a person who listened to Sid Hartman interview Terry Ryan very recently:

    'I'm totally fed up after listening to Ryan on Sid Hartman this AM. No more moves in the off season as he's content going into the season with what we have. He's so darn proud of all the pitching upgrades made this off season. To tout to us the fans the signing of two guys that pitched in a grand total of 3 games in 2012 as major moves.'

  15. #135
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Richard View Post
    It's safe to say most SP's of at least average quality did not want to sign here because they wanted to win.
    I think it's probably safer to say they didn't want to sign here because the Twins reportedly didn't make formal offers to any of them.

  16. #136
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    'Pitcher Mike Pelfrey officially joined the Twins on Thursday and promptly was shut down from participating in his offseason program. '

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    'Pitcher Mike Pelfrey officially joined the Twins on Thursday and promptly was shut down from participating in his offseason program. '
    link..........

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by edavis0308 View Post
    link..........
    Pelfrey comes aboard just in time to be shut down | StarTribune.com

  19. #139
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
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    Context, context, context.

    It's not because the righthander is struggling in his comeback from Tommy John elbow ligament replacement surgery. It's actually the opposite.

  20. #140
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Basically they told him to take a couple weeks off over the holidays before starting his pre-spring throwing sessions.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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