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Thread: Article: Is Lame Duck Gardy Good as Gone?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    For the record, I never mentioned the power part...the debate between you and I was only about whether or not Gardy had a big role in why Hardy was traded. I won't pretend to know the real reason why Gardy wanted him gone.

    But if we can put that aside, once Hardy got healthy (occurring in the 2nd half of 2010), he posted a slash line of .304/.363/.442. From a shortstop, that's pretty impressive. Wouldn't it have made sense to see what he had the following year since he wasn't due a big raise in arbitration anyway
    More or less agree. I was perplexed at the time, and really disappointed in what they got back (which I doubt Gardenhire had anything to do with, btw). Even in the moment, it was one of my least liked personnel moves. And that's without using hindsight to shift around the reasons for it at the time as was done (not by you).

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    More or less agree. I was perplexed at the time, and really disappointed in what they got back (which I doubt Gardenhire had anything to do with, btw). Even in the moment, it was one of my least liked personnel moves. And that's without using hindsight to shift around the reasons for it at the time as was done (not by you).
    I was giddy when we got him and royally ticked when he was traded. :-)

    Heck, even in an injury year with us, he posted the best UZR/150 of any starting shortstop. Have always loved his defense

  3. #83
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Myself... I was pissed that we gave up Gomez for Hardy and I still am today to a certain degree... I felt that Gomez was up with the big club too early. Gomez has all the tools to be a superstar... He just needed his head to catch up. That was my feeling at the time. He hasn't gone nuts yet but I still think he can. Last year... He started to show it a little. Let's see what he does this year.

    At the time of the Hardy trade to Baltimore... I was hopeful that the pitchers we got back were worth something and also hopeful that this Nishioka guy was gonna be as advertised. In hindsight... Neither the pitchers or Nishioka were close to MLB capable and it ended up being a huge mistake.

    In the end... I think it has been two wrongs making it all wronger.

    As a pure guess... I think Gardenhire has huge influence on the roster. Gomez... Hardy... all of them...

    He's the Manager and he works with the players everyday. What a ****ty job if you are not consulted at all when it comes to shaping the roster you are supposed to manage. There are probably times when Gardy disagrees with moves and times when Gardy was the spark that lit the fire. I'm sure Gardy is allowed in the meetings and his wishes considered.

    A Manager (in my imagination) is just another part of the filtering process or another tool (not meant as the negative version of tool) that the GM has in front of him. I think it's entirely possible that when Terry Ryan stepped down. Mr. Smith tried to serve Gardy more than Terry Ryan did or would and the team lost some balance in the decision making process. That's just a guess...

    I'm under the impression rightly or wrongly that the combination of Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire was pretty good and the combination of Bill Smith and Ron Gardenhire was not.

    Anyway, we all mistakes and in the end you gotta try something to get better and sometimes it doesn't work out... Hindsight is an unfair advantage to those who judge.

    In the End... The Teams performance will determine if they are getting the job done. It's my opinion that it's too soon to hang TR since he has come back because the organization is a really big boat and turning it around on a dime is impossible...

    Also in my opinion Gardy is coming close to the time where replacing him is a consideration but his success prior should not be overlooked because I do believe that Gardy had a role in where we were and where we are.

  4. #84
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Hindsight is an unfair advantage to those who judge.

    I hate this excuse.

    Many people at the time of the Hardy trade: "What the heck is Smith DOING? Ridiculously stupid."

    A few: "Just wait and see. Hardy wasn't any good, need years to evaluate a trade, blah blah blah."

    Later, said many people: "See, the Hardy trade was ridiculously stupid."

    A few: "Hindsight!"

  5. #85
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    There was a huge population ripping the Hardy trade when it was made....it is unfair to classify it all as hindsight. Just as there is a huge disagreement with signings made so far this year.

  6. #86
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    Wasn't saying the trade was only bad in hindsight (as already pointed out). Was pointing out the power angle wasn't what is being claimed now. That's not the same. And probably got under my skin because of the common insinuation that "they" would actually prefer a player NOT to have power. That part is probably on me for letting an "outer voice" (or whatever the terminology used on this site in a really good article) influence me a bit too much.

  7. #87
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I used the Term hindsight and I'll stand by it. It doesn't apply to everyone in all cases but it does apply often enough to be valid.

    I was using my thoughts with my application of the word hindsight as it applies to me. In hindsight,,, I still think I was right On the Gomez Trade and obviously wrong with my lack of concern over the Hardy to Baltimore trade but I'm not going to use my thoughts at the time in hindsight to vilify or praise the decision makers. Every GM has made a bad trade or bad signing. I don't expect perfection because I've never met anyone who is perfect.

    To clarify... I'm not going to throw Bill Smith into the fire for a single trade... I will throw Bill Smith into the fire for the totality of what happened to my Twins during his tenure. The lack of harvest we are reaping now and he was the final say... The King of the filter... Ultimately... The blame truly rests at Pohlads feet. Because the owner hires the people who hire the people and bringing Terry Ryan back is an attempt to correct that mistake in my opinion.

    There are a lot of people employed in the Twins front office... They are not just cardboard cutouts... They are employed for a reason. I don't know who supports each decision and I don't who is in opposition of each decision... but Im pretty sure... Much like Twins Daily... Very rarely would the entire front office agree 100 percent... 100 percent of the time. Things just don't happen that easy in life. I can't get my wife to agree with me that the Ground Round would be a great place to eat tonight when she wants to go to Applebee's.

    There are times when John Bonnes and Seth Stohs disagree or Nick or Parker or Brock... At least I think so... All want the team to get better and looking at how things turned out in hindsight isn't worth much because if John was right this time.. He may be wrong the next time.

    The bottom line is that we are in last place... Things went wrong... Bill Smith was removed as GM in an organization that hadnt done a lot of removing period. It appears from the outside that Bill Smith has been held responsoble... Now it has to be cleaned up and fixed.

    Gardy was the manager during this period so I'm pretty sure that he was a big part of this downturn. Either by making bad suggestions or by lacking the salesmanship to sell Bill Smith and others in the room on the right direction... the GM filter got clogged in my opinion.. I don't know how or why but it did and Gardy can't totally escape blame because Im pretty sure he was in the room. It would be strange if he wasn't.

    Yet I still think Gardy and Ryan have been good together... In hindsight... I may be wrong.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I can't get my wife to agree with me that the Ground Round would be a great place to eat tonight when she wants to go to Applebee's.
    North Dakota makes me sad.

    (Settle down, folks...just a joke. Probably.)

  9. #89
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    North Dakota makes me sad.

    (Settle down, folks...just a joke. Probably.)
    lol... It was just for example purposes... we do have other restaurants in North Dakota...

    Like... Buffalo Wild wings... Arby's... Hardees... Texas Roadhouse... McDonalds... Burger King... Ruby Tuesday... IHOP... Perkins... Subway... Quizno's and a Truck stop.

  10. #90
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    I love the Ground Round...especially on Fridays...free all you can eat wings, trivia contest, and drink specials. All this went on for like 2 1/2 hours. Used to be a regular start to the weekend in the late 90s-early 00s

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    When your top four knocks against him range from "speculation" to "pure fiction," I'd say that's actually a pretty ringing endorsement.
    Well, TPuck took care of the Hardy stuff, so no further comment needed from me.

    Regarding the OF alignment, Gardy was quoted in spring training about Willingham being more comfortable in LF. And we're all in agreement that Revere is a superior CF to Span defensively, right? Span's better arm doesn't make up for Revere's better range. Throw in Span's success as a LF in the Dome, the relatively spacious LF in Target Field and the fact that Willingham is the Butcher of Cairo no matter which OF position he plays at times...I think I've got a fair point on this one, not a fictional one. (I can't find it right now, but I swear I recall Gardy being quoted as saying Span was going to play CF because he liked it better there, but whether this was in the last year I don't know)

    We have had terrible production from the #2 spot in the batting order in recent years, and there have been better options available. Now, with Span leading off, Jamey Carroll isn't unreasonable; the career OBP is there. Casilla is a bigger reach; the .330 OBP years are marginally acceptable, the .280 years are NOT. Or the Nishioka or whomever else experiments, especially when you have on-base machine Joe Mauer sitting right there. Does he have to hit 3rd because he's won a batting title?

    I'll admit freely it's speculation on my part that Gardy gets himself kicked out because he can't control himself, but it's sure what it looks like to me. When he's screaming at an umpire and there isn't a Twins player within 30 feet of them, it's not protecting a player. It doesn't get you any advantage the rest of the game with the umpire; having refereed for years I can tell you that a coach going berserk in your face doesn't help that guy's cause. Much easier to write him off as a lunatic. The guys who calmly told me about a specific thing they wanted looked at were a lot easier to take seriously. Save the screaming for when you're trying to keep your player from getting thrown out.

    You might weight this stuff differently than me. That's fine. But I don't think I'm making stuff up here. And it's not my only problem with Gardenhire, who has been almost immune to criticism over the years, and I question the validity of that.

  12. #92
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    Uh, no we're not all in agreement that Revere was a better CF. Span's positioning and his initial read made up for being slightly less faster than Revere. {I have this sense posters equate Revere with Usian Bolt and every other Twins' OF ranges from snail to turtle--Span is fast!}
    Gardenhire badly underestimated Kubel's ability and marginalized him to the point that the Twins made the Tampa trade. The Santana trade and accepting the "package from the Mets"--has Gardenhire's input all over it. Combine that with the immediate promotion of Gomez over Span in the "famous" 2008 Spring Training CF competition--yeah, more Gardenhire. But to mee his biggest sin was the inclusion of Radke in the 2006 playoff roster and its rotation. Radke was injured and was no longer the pitcher he was. To claim "loyalty" was a slap in the face of everyone else who busted their tail to make the 2006 team a division winner. It is incumbent to put the best 9 on the field in the playoffs and Radke (sadly) was no longer in that category. Garza (he took over for Liriano in the OAK game when his tendon broke) pitched very well against the A's, demonstrating that he was up to the task of pitching against them. He should have been on the playoff roster as a minimum, and given the team's starting pitching needs (there were many) probably should have started Game 3. But loyalty to Radke--yikes!

  13. #93
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    'Uh, no we're not all in agreement that Revere was a better CF. Span's positioning and his initial read made up for being slightly less faster than Revere. {I have this sense posters equate Revere with Usian Bolt and every other Twins' OF ranges from snail to turtle--Span is fast!}'

    Bravo! Span was rated as the 3rd best defensive CF in the game this year, yet people act like he's pedestrian. After watching Span play CF this year and Revere last year in place of injured Span, I say Span is the better CF. Many of Revere's 'great' plays were only made great by him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with and taking bad routes. Not saying Revere isn't a very good defender...got better this year for sure...but Span is better. Span just isn't as flashy.

    As far as the rest of the post...I agree with some of it, some other stuff not so much. For example, while I do belief the 2008 ST battle for CF was a farce, I think management told Gardy, you are gonna play Gomez in CF. (because of the Santana trade...saving face). You know me, I'm no Gardy backer, but I think in that instance, his hands were tied. I also don't think he wanted Santana gone
    Last edited by ThePuck; 12-14-2012 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #94
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    I wasn't implying that Gardenhire was in favor of trading Santana, but rather he was strongly in favor of the Mets package as opposed to the competing packages from Boston and NY. He was "drooling" about Gomez, and others the "pitching prospects". True, if those guys had all panned-out--Oh my, the Twins would have been so much stronger and would not be in the position they are now!

  15. #95
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    I often find that people who use the term "hindsight is 20/20" often lack foresight. The Hardy trade was pretty obviously bad to a number of people, and yes Gardenhire had his hands all over it. I agree he isn't responsible for the return, but dragging the guy through the mud didn't exactly give Smith leverage either. Gardy didn't have the leverage on the organization in 2002 that he has today... and is a problem as well.

    I tend to think Gardy needs to go. He's never been good with the kids, and his game management skills (or lack thereof) are well known. He won't be fired, he just won't be extended. This is probably the most honorable way to do this. The Twins are going to need someone capable of developing young talent (like a Joe Madden), not someone whose first tendancy is to plug in some crappy veteran over that rookie who will make mistakes.

  16. #96
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    All of those ripping Gardy's game management - you do realize that almost any other manager would make the same moves Gardy does about 99.4% of the time, yes?

    Sure, you have a few outliers like Maddon who go against conventional wisdom and do some unusual things.

    But if it's Gardy's decision-making that gets to you, prepare yourself to be disappointed by his replacement, because it's highly unlikely that he'll do anything substantially different in that area.

    I think the 20/20 hindsight argument applies here more than it does to trades. A manager makes thousands of decisions over the course of a 162-game season. Even if he's right 90% of the time, which is insanely high, that's still a lot of times where he's wrong. You try to make decisions that give your team the best chance to win, but inevitably, you'll be wrong sometimes.

    When you follow a team closely, those decisions that didn't turn out well tend to stick with you. And because your exposure to other managers is more limited, you don't tend to see that they make the same types of decisions Gardy does.

    I remember going on a Tigers site a couple of years ago, and the forum was filled with anti-Leyland posts, some even complained specifically about him getting consistently out-managed by Gardy.

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