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Thread: Article: Correia Signing is a Sad Thing

  1. #141
    I can't bring myself to hate this move. The Twins are not at the top of anybody's list for free agency... If this guy forces Walters/Devries/Deduno/Blackburn to at least EARN a spot in the rotation, then the Twins made a good move.

    I know everybody wants the big splash, but this team isn't a contender even if this was Grienke the Twins signed. 2013 is a rebuild year, accept it. Would you rather the Twins make their big splash now, and waste what will be the 2 most productive years of a big free agents' deal on a rebuilding season? I'd rather this team punt 2013 and make their big splash in 2014.

    And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market. The Twins will sign free agents if they think they can contend.

  2. #142
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive View Post
    And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market.
    Just like the Capps contract didn't hamper them this past offseason, when they gave him way too much money way too early in free agency. Nope, it's inconceivable that this contract could potentially hamper them in ANY way this year or next. No chance whatsoever. None. Zip.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  3. #143
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    Dodger get another as Skip skips the Twins
    Shumaker is now a Dodger..

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kdag23 View Post
    To me it feels like a Jason Marquis deal. So, the Twins are going to have a rotation made up of guys that are no better than #3 on most other rosters in the league...again?

    This signing irks me considering that KC just signed James Shields. K f******C! The Twins don't have the pieces to do something like that - to sign someone who could actually be a legitimate #1?

    I got to thinking about Torii Hunter's comments a few seasons ago when talking about the Twins: "Sometimes I think they have that small mind over there, in that organization."
    The Royals didn't sign James Shields, they traded the best hitting prospect in baseball to get him....
    Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

  5. #145
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    You have to buy them in single A as pieces or take one as a chance at a higher level(May). The best the Royals trade was is even and many baseball writers consider it a steal for Tampa Bay. If that is what the Twins have to do, buy and develope, don't give the future away for a small chance now.

  6. #146
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdag23 View Post
    Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?
    Not in my lifetime.

    And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

    There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.

  7. #147
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    [QUOTE=ThePuck;70304][QUOTE=old nurse;70273][QUOTE=ThePuck;70248][QUOTE=old nurse;70243]
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

    It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

    All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to
    Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

  8. #148
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    So people still think they will fix all their holes next year, and should not start now? Can you explain how you think that might work? Can you explain how signing a second tier starter for 3-4 years does not help 2014?

  9. #149
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I will note, that you cited the issue in 2011 as blind trust of the organization and then posted a blog article this year called "In Terry we trust" in the midst of your soap boxing about why anyone with the opposite opinion of you on the signings of Feldman and Baker was misguided and that this offseason they could fix an awful pitching staff in one swing. No offense, but I can't possibly find a better example of blind trust than that. It's not like this organization has a strong history of major offseason upgrades. That's blind trust Nick, it's not any different.
    I do trust Terry Ryan. I trust his long-term vision. I trust his honesty. I trust his ability to pluck quality players out of other organizations. But he's not flawless and his ability to sign quality free agent pitchers is clearly a major weakness. Maybe it's a money thing tied to the organization's fiscal philosophies but signing Corriea to a two-year deal in December is strange from any perspective. I thought perhaps he'd learned a lesson from the Jason Marquis fiasco (not to mention Livan Hernandez, Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, etc) but apparently not. Nevertheless, there are worse flaws that a GM could have, especially for a franchise such as this one that will never rely on free agency to build a rotation.

    Could you please find an example of me harshly criticizing "anyone with the opposite opinion" and "soapboxing" on Baker/Feldman? I recall stating my opinion on the matter, as is the norm on a message board. I don't recall being as dramatic about it as you make it sound.

  10. #150
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Nevertheless, there are worse flaws that a GM could have, especially for a franchise such as this one that will never rely on free agency to build a rotation.
    I'm not a Ryan basher, that's not the direction it's heading. Ryan builds strong organizations, is patient, and has (as you correctly put it) long-term vision. But all of those factors are also incredibly strong indicators that a one-offseason approach to fixing this team were absolutely foolish. Going into this offseason with that expectation was blind trust because it relied on JR to do something he's never done before and is unlikely to ever do in his tenure. It's not his wheelhouse.

    As for the rest, we both know no matter what is posted we'll keep our own opinion on the tone. The threads aren't hard to find, basically any centered on Feldman, Baker, or your thoughts about them. You were aggressive in your early condemnation of the Cubs signings (arguably three articles with that point) and made it a point to call out a number of posters who shared pessimism about the upcoming season. It doesn't make me happy that we are bound to stink again next year, but it also doesn't change that the side of the fence you chose on both of those arguments was wrong.

  11. #151
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Going into this offseason with that expectation was blind trust because it relied on JR to do something he's never done before and is unlikely to ever do in his tenure. It's not his wheelhouse.
    I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
    As for the rest, we both know no matter what is posted we'll keep our own opinion on the tone. The threads aren't hard to find, basically any centered on Feldman, Baker, or your thoughts about them. You were aggressive in your early condemnation of the Cubs signings (arguably three articles with that point) and made it a point to call out a number of posters who shared pessimism about the upcoming season.
    Nah, that's a cop-out. If you're going to throw around these claims you better be able to back them up. Are you talking about when I said of the Feldman signing: "The total seems somewhat extreme, at least from the perspective of an organization with less money to throw around than the Cubs, but perhaps only by the preset standards we entered this offseason with"? Or when I said of the Baker signing: "Baker is a very good pitcher when healthy, but he's eclipsed 175 innings only once in his career and guaranteeing him $5.5 million in his first season back from major elbow surgery – despite a saturated pitching market – seems crazy to me" (emphasis added)?

    I'm sorry, but neither of the articles you're referring to strike me as soapboxing nor attacking people with opposing viewpoints, and if I was doing that in the forum I don't remember it. Instead, this seems like yet another instance of you mischaracterizing or exaggerating another person's position to belittle them in hindsight. It's bad form.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
    It doesn't make me happy that we are bound to stink again next year, but it also doesn't change that the side of the fence you chose on both of those arguments was wrong.
    It's way too early to be calling anyone "wrong" about any of this. Once again: Kevin Correia signing a hideous contract does not make Baker's contract or Feldman's contract any more attractive. I still wouldn't have liked either of them for the Twins. Their contracts are relatively better than Correia's though. You win that point.

  12. #152

    Another # 5 starter

    Looks like there will be plenty of competition for the long relief role, luckily, there will be plenty of long relief situations for the "competitors"
    to fill.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Poster Alive View Post
    And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market.
    Just like the Capps contract didn't hamper them this past offseason, when they gave him way too much money way too early in free agency. Nope, it's inconceivable that this contract could potentially hamper them in ANY way this year or next. No chance whatsoever. None. Zip.
    They may use it as an excuse, I'm sure that's a possibility... but I'm not onboard with people's assessment that the Twins have a firm limit on payroll. I think they spend money when they believe there is value in the contract, or when they absolutely have to fill a need (like this case). I believe if this team is on the verge of contending next year the Twins will spend money to do so. 5 million dollars isn't gonna make much of a difference either way.

  14. #154
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.
    So you don't see the value in relying on precedent, general tactics of a known GM, or analysis of the market....but hope is just fine? Because that's what you've got - hope. And, not just plain old hope, it was "let's add three quality arms without dinging our average offensive output so we can compete even though historically there may be no precedent of any team, in any situation, ever doing so" level of hope. Sorry, but I'll take precedent and actual analysis over that basis any day of the week. You should be familiar with it, you did it two years ago yourself. I'm not sure if all of you guys writing articles were intentionally being positive or what it was, but there was a real dearth of sobering reality from anyone but a few posters.

    Nah, that's a cop-out.
    Here's what I'll say looking back, you took an aggressive approach to your take and sometimes that makes you look like a genius and sometimes you get the opposite. You called Baker's deal "undeniably" great for him (implying undeniably a poor tactic for the Twins. The context comes right after that one) and then demanded evidence from anyone disagreeing with your point. Evidence you refused to reciprocate btw. But you're right, there was less direct evidence of it than my memory recalls. So I take those terms back with apologies. It would be better phrased that you were aggressive in labeling Baker as a mistake that the Twins rightly avoided.

    Personally, I think if they had taken that "mistake", we might have avoided this one.

  15. #155
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    Best thing about this signing we didn't give someone 2 years 16 million because his ERA was 2 tenths of a point better. Guy compares to Carl Pavano, wouldn't want to see him start a playoff game, but thats not going to be a problem.

  16. #156
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    [QUOTE=old nurse;70575][QUOTE=ThePuck;70304][QUOTE=old nurse;70273][QUOTE=ThePuck;70248]
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

    It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

    All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to
    Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.
    Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

    In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

  17. #157
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    [QUOTE=ThePuck;70777][QUOTE=old nurse;70575][QUOTE=ThePuck;70304][QUOTE=old nurse;70273]
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

    It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

    All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to
    Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.
    Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

    In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.
    Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.
    I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.

  18. #158
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    [QUOTE=old nurse;70855][QUOTE=ThePuck;70777][QUOTE=old nurse;70575][QUOTE=ThePuck;70304]
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

    It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

    All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to
    Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.
    Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

    In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.
    Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.
    I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.
    Yeah, my idea that a reason we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency is because maybe sometimes we haven't offered the most money isn't an idea based on reality. I mean, it's crazy to believe maybe we have lost out on some top notch FA pitching due to not offering the most money. I get it. I don't have any proof that maybe a pitcher or two decided 'hey, I'll go where I'm offered the most money.' and by signing elsewhere, that means we didn't offer the most money. I'm just loopy to think money might be a factor in a pitchers decision on where to sign. AND I NEVER SAID THE TWINS LOST OUT ON FA PITCHING EVERY TIME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OFFER THE MOST MONEY. I said sometime maybe money was the reason.

    Oh, and you know, I didn't discount anyone else's ideas as to why we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency as 'stupid' either...there's a lot of factors....the poster I originally responded to listed some, but he didn't list money. So I added that as another possible reason. I didn't discount the factors he posted.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 12-13-2012 at 09:16 AM.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kdag23 View Post
    Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?
    Not in my lifetime.

    And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

    There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.
    It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kdag23 View Post
    Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?
    Not in my lifetime.

    And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

    There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.
    It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.
    John Smiley?

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