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Thread: Article: Ben Revere Traded to Philly for RHP Vance Worley & Top Pitching Prospect

  1. #201
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Jeez Dog... I'm quite curious to see how the rest of the off season plays out first.
    Me too! But future playing out is likely only going to lead to more questions!

    With every tick of the clock!

  2. #202
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post

    - I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

    The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries. Heading into this year Philly has plenty of pitching, but a ton of holes on offense. The Twins have/had a ton of holes pitching wise and quite a bit of CF/O depth.

    This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+

  3. #203
    Haven't weighed in yet, just gotta say...great Trade!

  4. #204
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    Doesn't this remind anyone of a Twins trade, but backwards?

  5. #205
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    I'm suddenly excited for Spring Training.

  6. #206
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crapforks View Post
    doesn't this remind anyone of a bill smith trade, but backwards?
    fify.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

    Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.
    Good take. No way Mays makes top 100's, my guess is he's in the 150-200 range. Sickels gut reactions was to give him a B- grade, that'd put him in the 9th-12th range for the Twins.

  8. #208
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    [QUOTE=SpiritofVodkaDave;68482]
    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post

    - I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

    The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries. Heading into this year Philly has plenty of pitching, but a ton of holes on offense. The Twins have/had a ton of holes pitching wise and quite a bit of CF/O depth.

    This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+[/QUOTE]



    '14 yes. '13 is still up in the air regarding the Twins. As of today, December 6th, there are now more holes/???s in the roster make-up than last year.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries.
    If you say so, man, but you got me interested if I'd looked at the numbers wrong:

    Phillies 2011:
    runs scored = 713
    runs allowed = 529

    Phillies 2012:
    runs scored = 684
    runs allowed = 680

    Looks like a breakdown on defense to me. And if the problem on defense was injuries to starting pitchers, well *we just traded for the guy who replaced those injured starters*. That doesn't fill me with confidence.

    This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+
    I don't see how this trade makes the Twins any better in 2013, if you assume Hicks isn't going to play because he's not ready. If Hicks is ready, then it's addition by subtraction, but that there's an argument rather than widespread consensus that this is his year (as there was when the Twins dealt Pierzynski) suggests to me that the 'Twins are better next year with this trade' is arguable. Add in the Span trade, and the Twins are clearly not better on offense than they were last year, and offense was about the only thing they did well -- in spots. I won't argue with you about 2014+, because I agree that long-term, restocking the farm system with pitching is a good thing and should, with luck, pay off.

    I do know the trades have had one concrete impact already -- one season ticket holder I know is not renewing her tickets for next year. So you'll probably have an easier time scoring good seats to watch the 2013 Twins, better or worse.

  10. #210
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    - I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

    - I also think that if people really think Hicks's upside is rookie-year Torii Hunter, then there's no reason to start him in center in 2013 no matter how good his spring happens to be -- to justify starting his free agent clock early and possibly burning an entire year of eligibility via super-two status, he's got to be ROY-caliber material.
    I'd probably take issue with these two points to some degree.

    First, the Twins and Phillies are in vastly different places. The Phils were a .500 team who believe they should be much better than that. Just because they see Worley as expendable doesn't mean he can't be a considerable help to the Twins, who lost a bazillion games the past 2 seasons and would probably be pretty satisfied getting back to .500. I don't think it's at all silly for the Twins and their fans to think a healthy Worley could help raise them to that level of competitiveness. Nobody is saying he's ALL the Twins need to be competitive, but he can and should "help".

    I also think the Twins should be at the point where worrying about when they start a player's service time clock just isn't a big factor. I'm not sure Hicks will be ready to play Big League baseball. If he's not, he should go to Rochester. But if an honest evaluation determines that he either IS ready or will benefit more by playing every day in Minn than in Rochester, that's what he should do... regardless of what it means for his service time. By 2018 or 2019 or whenever he becomes eligible for free agency, Buxton or Kepler or someone else will probably be ready to replace him (or already have done so). If not and if the Twins feel he's worth keeping along the way, they should have signed him to a nice extension. This should no longer be a team scrimping nickels by playing games with service time.
    I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at Knuckleballsblog.com while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for MetroSportsReport.com.

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  11. #211
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iastfan112 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

    Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.
    Good take. No way Mays makes top 100's, my guess is he's in the 150-200 range. Sickels gut reactions was to give him a B- grade, that'd put him in the 9th-12th range for the Twins.
    MAY is already #58 in scouting book and that is updated throughout the year.

  12. #212
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries.
    If you say so, man, but you got me interested if I'd looked at the numbers wrong:

    Phillies 2011:
    runs scored = 713
    runs allowed = 529

    Phillies 2012:
    runs scored = 684
    runs allowed = 680

    Looks like a breakdown on defense to me. And if the problem on defense was injuries to starting pitchers, well *we just traded for the guy who replaced those injured starters*. That doesn't fill me with confidence.

    This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+
    I don't see how this trade makes the Twins any better in 2013, if you assume Hicks isn't going to play because he's not ready. If Hicks is ready, then it's addition by subtraction, but that there's an argument rather than widespread consensus that this is his year (as there was when the Twins dealt Pierzynski) suggests to me that the 'Twins are better next year with this trade' is arguable. Add in the Span trade, and the Twins are clearly not better on offense than they were last year, and offense was about the only thing they did well -- in spots. I won't argue with you about 2014+, because I agree that long-term, restocking the farm system with pitching is a good thing and should, with luck, pay off.

    I do know the trades have had one concrete impact already -- one season ticket holder I know is not renewing her tickets for next year. So you'll probably have an easier time scoring good seats to watch the 2013 Twins, better or worse.
    Have you seen what the Phillies current offense is/was? They traded away one of their above average hitters in Pence last season. Other then that they had exactly two guys that had a OPS+ higher then 100. Their best hitter Ruiz is sure to regress back to earth this year as well. The Phillies needed offense. They still have Hamels+Halladay+Lee. Their SP is fine.

    Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.

  13. #213
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

    I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

    I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

    The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

    I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

    Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

  14. #214
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=SpiritofVodkaDave;68499]
    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.
    Actually, I'd say that any fan who would drop season tickets because the Twins traded Revere really hadn't been paying enough attention to this point. There have been, and remain, a fair sized list of really legitimate reasons to drop your season tickets for 2013, but this trade shouldn't be anywhere on that list.
    I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at Knuckleballsblog.com while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for MetroSportsReport.com.

    ~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post

    First, the Twins and Phillies are in vastly different places. The Phils were a .500 team who believe they should be much better than that. Just because they see Worley as expendable doesn't mean he can't be a considerable help to the Twins, who lost a bazillion games the past 2 seasons and would probably be pretty satisfied getting back to .500.
    Absolutely agree -- the Phillies won over 100 games in 2011 and still have most of those players, so I'm sure they think they're still competitive. On the other hand, it's hard to look at their starting lineup and not see that they're on the clock -- Pence and Mayberry were the only semi-regulars under 30, and Pence turns 30 next year. If they don't pull the trigger real soon, they probably lose their opportunity for another championship before the Halladay/Howard/Rollins era ends. So definitely the Twins and Phillies could value both Worley and Revere differently based on where they're at.

    I also think the Twins should be at the point where worrying about when they start a player's service time clock just isn't a big factor. I'm not sure Hicks will be ready to play Big League baseball. If he's not, he should go to Rochester. But if an honest evaluation determines that he either IS ready or will benefit more by playing every day in Minn than in Rochester, that's what he should do... regardless of what it means for his service time.
    The Twins should already know if Hicks is ready for 2013 -- three weeks in spring shouldn't change that evaluation. But if you haven't noticed, the era of 'we're not going to worry about payroll' ended a couple of months after Target Field opened. In that sense, it would be dumb for the Twins to hurry Hicks and get only three good seasons out of five when they could season him and get four good seasons out of six. On the other hand, five good seasons out of five is better than four good seasons out of six, so if the decision has already been made (and you could argue that trading two CFs in a week is a pretty strong indication of a decision), then go for it.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

    I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

    I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

    The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

    I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

    Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.
    Reading this post, I'm not clear how adding just Vance Worley/subtracting your lead-off batting CFer w/ no obvous replacement- and- the premeire defensive RF- makes this team better. One additional mid-back-rotation starter stabilizes and balances the team but one day a week

  17. #217
    A dissenting voice--dont like this trade...

    Worley is a decent pitcher--maybe a number 3--will be number 2 on Twins--but wont be enough to get us to 500. The other pitcher (May) had an ERA approaching 5 in AA ball. No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect...bottom line we didnt get enough for Revere.

    We now have holes in CF and middle IF--yes maybe Hicks or Benson can fill CF hole, maybe not. With Willingham, Doumit, and/or Parmalee in OF, CF is going to need to be a track star to get all the balls...our pitchers are gonna give up runs. with this OF.

    2014 and forward may work IF Hicks does the job...

  18. #218
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

    Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

    This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post
    No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect
    Can't argue with that logic.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

    Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

    This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.
    Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

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