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Thread: Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

  1. #261
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    For 2013, this makes the major league team significantly worse than they were at the end of the season. I'm not very confident that Ryan will put together a rotation that will both improve on the 2012 version and compensate for the loss of Span.

    With that in mind I really think they should trade off some more players. The 2013 Twins have been all but mathematically eliminated.
    I don't think the team will be significantly worse. Much of Span's value came from defense and Revere will surpass that. Offensively, it allows us to potentially put a power bat in RF (Parmelee will get first shot but Plouffe and/or Hicks/Arcia will probably get looks there too).
    It's not like Revere should have had a death grip on RF last year in the first place. The Twins could have put either Parmelee or Plouffe out there last year.

    So defensively, the outfield is substantially worse. Offensively, you're trading Span for Parmelee. Plouffe was in the lineup already anyways.

  2. #262
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    For 2013, this makes the major league team significantly worse than they were at the end of the season. I'm not very confident that Ryan will put together a rotation that will both improve on the 2012 version and compensate for the loss of Span.

    With that in mind I really think they should trade off some more players. The 2013 Twins have been all but mathematically eliminated.
    I don't think the team will be significantly worse. Much of Span's value came from defense and Revere will surpass that. Offensively, it allows us to potentially put a power bat in RF (Parmelee will get first shot but Plouffe and/or Hicks/Arcia will probably get looks there too).
    It's not like Revere should have had a death grip on RF last year in the first place. The Twins could have put either Parmelee or Plouffe out there last year.

    So defensively, the outfield is substantially worse. Offensively, you're trading Span for Parmelee. Plouffe was in the lineup already anyways.
    It's worse, but not as bad as some people are making it out to be.

    Revere in CF >>>>>>>>>>>>> Span in CF

    As long as Parmelee can hold his own (I see no reason why he can't) the Twins should be fine out there.

  3. #263
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    For 2013, this makes the major league team significantly worse than they were at the end of the season. I'm not very confident that Ryan will put together a rotation that will both improve on the 2012 version and compensate for the loss of Span.

    With that in mind I really think they should trade off some more players. The 2013 Twins have been all but mathematically eliminated.
    I don't think the team will be significantly worse. Much of Span's value came from defense and Revere will surpass that. Offensively, it allows us to potentially put a power bat in RF (Parmelee will get first shot but Plouffe and/or Hicks/Arcia will probably get looks there too).
    It's not like Revere should have had a death grip on RF last year in the first place. The Twins could have put either Parmelee or Plouffe out there last year.

    So defensively, the outfield is substantially worse. Offensively, you're trading Span for Parmelee. Plouffe was in the lineup already anyways.
    It's worse, but not as bad as some people are making it out to be.

    Revere in CF >>>>>>>>>>>>> Span in CF

    As long as Parmelee can hold his own (I see no reason why he can't) the Twins should be fine out there.
    I'll agree that Revere is a better defensive center fielder than Span, but not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better.

    I'm just making the point that losing Span and getting no major league players for him makes the 2013 major league team worse than they were at the end of the season.

  4. #264
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Let's not get lost in the plight of the Royals and say this rebuilding thing is garbage. Can any of the "Royals example people" say that we don't want the products of the Royals Farm. Would you disapointed if Perez showed up in a Twins uniform... Hosmer, Moose, Butler, Gordon are fine examples of a thriving farm system. We'd love to have Colon in our system. Even with our outfield Glut... We'd love to have Wil Myers.

    The Royals have failed so far for a couple of reasons in my mind.

    A. Pitching... The Royals have never had a decent pitching staff during this entire run of bad luck. Who are the pitching prospects that have born fruit. Odorizzi, Montgomery, Lamb, Dwyer haven't arrived yet. The Majority of Arms from the Farm with the big club are bullpen guys. That's why they are talking about trading Wil Myers and names like Lester and Shields are popping up. If they acquire Lester or Shields... That's a product of the Farm System as well.

    B. Front Office... The Royals are overstocked on the Farm and the Front Office hasn't yet traded the excess for Major League Talent(PItching). It's one thing to stock your farm... It's another thing to not harvest it in the many ways that you can harvest it.

    C. The Royals can hit... They can't pitch... Playing from behind sucks... No Vibe yet with the club when you are playing from behind.

    Don't think for a second that the Royals can't be one of those teams that comes out of nowhere and surprises you. I won't be surprised when it happens... Others will but I won't.

    Like the Twins... They need Pitching and they need it bad. Acquiring pitching is how you fix it.

    I won't write them off and the Barbecue is great in Kansas City BTW.

    Also... If you are going to use the Royals as an example... Please try to consider using the Rays as an example as well. It's only fair.

  5. #265
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    Parmelee might start the season in RF but Hicks or Arcia will end the season there. I can also almost guarantee that one of Mauer/Morneau/Doumit/Willingham/Parmelee will be injured at some point freeing Parmelee to play DH/1B.

  6. #266
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Revere/Hicks OF would be freaking awesome.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post

    It's not like Revere should have had a death grip on RF last year in the first place. The Twins could have put either Parmelee or Plouffe out there last year.

    So defensively, the outfield is substantially worse. Offensively, you're trading Span for Parmelee. Plouffe was in the lineup already anyways.
    It's easy to forget because of what he did late in the season, but Parmelee wasn't playing well early in the year. Revere needed at-bats as well and had done more to deserve a more permanent promotion. Revere was hitting well much of the season, so I think he had earned it for the full season. Revere was also the safer bet because his defense would have made up somewhat for a lack of offense and can play any OF position. Parmelee has no such fallback or utility (yes he can play 1B, but so can Doumit and Mauer).

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    Here's why Meyer is a much better return than Mike Leake. Mike Leake has no more upside than what he's shown, and if Meyer doesn't pan out, you can find FAs who are basically as good as Leake. Top prospects for average guys when you're a losing team is absolutely the most cost-efficient and talent-optimal way to do business. And I really dislike Terry Ryan.
    Top prospects for average guys? Are you out of your mind? Span is an average guy? He is one of the best lead off hitters in the league and he plays good defense. He is incredibly cheap. He is our best trading chip. Morneau is way too expensive. Hamilton cannot play defense.

  9. #269
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I will never understand it... There are people who seem to hate (maybe too strong a word) Revere but love Billy Hamilton.

    Revere has things to work on... But he can play.

    If Hicks is what people say he is. When he arrives... The OF pairing of Hicks and Revere will be a thing of a beauty.

    With the Pitching staff that we had in 2012. Span in Between Parmelee and Willingham or Doumit and Willingham would have been terrible.

    If Arcia and Hicks come up this year and out play Ben. Great for us... Until they do... It's Ben's Job and he earned it. I will never understand why Ben is a problem.

    Trading Span we took a step back in Outfield defense... But the step back is only for awhile cuz Hicks is knocking on the door. When Hicks arrives... Our OF will be stronger... If Hicks is what people say he is...

    Meanwhile we gained a high ceiling Pitcher who could "God Willing" help us shore up the biggest organizational problem period. Maybe not now but Soon enough. Meyer is 22 and there is nothing above him to block him from advancing quickly. All he has to do is Pitch like some people think he can.

    I'll never understand the Revere fear that exists with some on this board.

  10. #270
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'll never understand the Revere fear that exists with some on this board.
    It's because players like Revere tend to have short careers that end brutally. I'm not against Revere as a stopgap; what I'm against is having him through his late 20s and then paying him a bunch of money just as he falls on his face (see Figgins, Chone). The Twins can keep Revere for a year or two but if they're smart, they'll ditch him the moment his value is high and they have someone else to play the position.

  11. #271
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quick Question for all...

    Can anybody think of a player that hasn't been drug threw the mud on this website. I believe every single Twins Player has been tarnished in some way by the posters on this site.

    Mauer... Too Big A Contract... not enough Power... Too tall for Catcher.
    Morneau... Concussions... Best days are behind him... Too Big a Contract.
    Carroll... Too Old... Too Light Hitting.
    Florimon... Can't make the routine play consistenly... Cast off by other teams... Can't hit...
    Plouffe... one good month... Can't field... Inconsistent throws... Poor Plate discipline...
    Willingham... Career year... Too Old and will obviously regress... Strikes out too much... no range in the OF...
    Span... No Power... Weak Arm... Injury Prone...
    Revere... no Power... Slap Hitting... Weak Arm...

    I don't need to go on... Everyone can surely recognize this stuff... We've been reading it...

    Everyone of these weaknesses is played up like it's costing us the championship and we can't win until someone else is brought in. My Point is that the perfect players are very few and they make a ton of money or they will very soon. As soon as they make a ton of money... That becomes a negative and they will be tossed under the bus like everyone else.

    The Twins have flaws and so does every other team.

  12. #272
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'll never understand the Revere fear that exists with some on this board.
    It's because players like Revere tend to have short careers that end brutally. I'm not against Revere as a stopgap; what I'm against is having him through his late 20s and then paying him a bunch of money just as he falls on his face (see Figgins, Chone). The Twins can keep Revere for a year or two but if they're smart, they'll ditch him the moment his value is high and they have someone else to play the position.
    They might do that but not today... We got OF'ers on the way... Ben can hear the footsteps behind him. Until then... We are lucky to have him. He's not a problem on this squad at all. The only way you can make him be a problem is by wishing he has a Ryan Braun skill set. That isn't fair... And wishing he has a Billy Hamilton skill set is comical cuz he does.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'll never understand the Revere fear that exists with some on this board.
    It's because players like Revere tend to have short careers that end brutally. I'm not against Revere as a stopgap; what I'm against is having him through his late 20s and then paying him a bunch of money just as he falls on his face (see Figgins, Chone). The Twins can keep Revere for a year or two but if they're smart, they'll ditch him the moment his value is high and they have someone else to play the position.
    I like Revere, but I'd agree he has his drawbacks. He slugs below .700, and his OBP needs to improve. I'd choose Span over him for sure, but as mentioned, it's less about him than it is about depth in the outfield behind him.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'll never understand the Revere fear that exists with some on this board.
    It's because players like Revere tend to have short careers that end brutally. I'm not against Revere as a stopgap; what I'm against is having him through his late 20s and then paying him a bunch of money just as he falls on his face (see Figgins, Chone). The Twins can keep Revere for a year or two but if they're smart, they'll ditch him the moment his value is high and they have someone else to play the position.
    I like Revere, but I'd agree he has his drawbacks. He slugs below .700, and his OBP needs to improve. I'd choose Span over him for sure, but as mentioned, it's less about him than it is about depth in the outfield behind him.

    Did you really expect Revere to hit 40 doubles and 10 home runs?

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    So when we throw in the towel, all we got left is prospects. Mighty team you got us to watch!
    Did you really expect the Twins to be a playoff contender and win 90 games? If you did.....you need get some help.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Late to the party here tonight, but I'll chime in that this is the kind of trade I was hoping for - a high ceiling pitcher in exchange for an average MLB-proven CFer. I was kind of hoping for a second prospect (maybe in exchange for a throw-in by the Twins), but this is OK. As always, I have no fundamental insight into prospects so as armchair GM I have to trust "my" scouts on the choice of the pitcher to trade for.

    The loss of Span frees up a little money that can be spent (with money already earmarked) on pitching to keep 2013-14 from being a disaster that would harm cashflow for when they are ready to compete again in 2015 or so. Should be an interesting winter, with this as the opening salvo.
    Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:

    In an interview with 1500 ESPN Twin Cities radio (via Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN), Twins assistant GM Rob Antony said his team will likely pursue free agents over trades at the Winter Meetings. "We probably don't have a lot of pieces that we do have to trade for starting pitching [with Denard Span now gone]," Antony said. "We'll probably be a little more aggressive and spend our time at the winter meetings talking to agents rather than clubs."


    This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".
    Yeap Joe Saunders, Marcum, and Myers here we come. And honestly I wouldnt mind that at all. If they turn out to be decent and our team is still horrible we can just flip at the deadline for a few prospects.

  17. #277
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    Yes I do expect the Twins to win every year. I do not expect the money that we have freed up to go to line the owners pockets.when we get the extra 25M, Maybe let Justin go, then Winny, then Perk, then Mauer, the new ball park. I do not expect the Twins to be the Marlins. I did expect to get Alot more help than that for Span, But I can live with the Meyes trade. If we spend that money and put a better produce on the field this year and every year. I expect winning baseball, a mlb team every year.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    Yes I do expect the Twins to win every year. I do not expect the money that we have freed up to go to line the owners pockets.when we get the extra 25M, Maybe let Justin go, then Winny, then Perk, then Mauer, the new ball park. I do not expect the Twins to be the Marlins. I did expect to get Alot more help than that for Span, But I can live with the Meyes trade. If we spend that money and put a better produce on the field this year and every year. I expect winning baseball, a mlb team every year.
    There is nothing wrong with thinking the Twins will win every year. Just look at this team though.....They likely arent goingtogo after pitchers that we(the people at Twinsdaily) Are all saying they should go after. Pohlad fleeced the state of MN, and no its pocketing all that money. He will then sign former 15 minutes of fame pitcher Byung-yung Kim and say hey what do you mean im not spending any money? I would love if the Twins sign 2-3 big name pitchers but its just not the TWINS WAY.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS View Post


    Did you really expect Revere to hit 40 doubles and 10 home runs?
    Not sure what you're getting at.

    No, I don't really expect that of him, but that's why I said he has his drawbacks (referring to why people are critical of him). In 553 PA, he had 13 doubles...I've got no problems with him replacing Span for now, but I'd like more than a .700 OPS out of an outfielder and hitting .294, he should have a better OBP than he's got. I think he can hold down a starting spot on the Twins as they currently stand. Whether he's something you want long term out there may be another question, but his defense and at least acceptable bat allowed for the Twins to get something out of Span and not throw in the towel for next year (as some are saying they've done).
    Last edited by Alex; 11-30-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  20. #280
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    I do not hate the Polhads, or Ryan or Gardy, but I do expect them to get us a very good major league starting pitcher. Maybe even two. I expect mlb pitchers on the field. I expect Gardy to run a tight ship. Not shovelin waiver wire falley in and out. You can't fool the fans, you lose the customer.

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