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Thread: Hot Stove Time Machine

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    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    Hot Stove Time Machine

    What if the Twins, with the 22nd overall pick in the 2009 MLB June Amateur draft, had taken Mike Trout (drafted three picks later) instead of Kyle Gibson? Would Trout have made as quick a debut and as immediate an impact with the Twins as he did with the Angels or would he just now be getting promoted to New Britain?

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer minn55441's Avatar
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    What do we need another toolsie outfielder for? We need pitching. Oh wait, time machine, this is 2009. What do we need another toolsie outfielder for? We need pitching.

    Yes, I do believe that he could have progressed through the Twins farm system just as quickly. When someone dominates at a level they will move, regardless of the organization. I don't think it will be fair to compare Buxton to Trout. He will get promoted when he is ready. He should not get promoted through levels just in an attempt to match the success of Trout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teflon View Post
    What if the Twins, with the 22nd overall pick in the 2009 MLB June Amateur draft, had taken Mike Trout (drafted three picks later) instead of Kyle Gibson? Would Trout have made as quick a debut and as immediate an impact with the Twins as he did with the Angels or would he just now be getting promoted to New Britain?
    I don't believe he'd be in the majors if he had been drafted by us. Funny thing is, I looked at his numbers in high school and Buxton's numbers in high school. The major difference was Trout actually was already showing some HR power, so it makes me wonder how he was missed by so many teams when Buxton, who had lesser numbers against easier competition was viewed as the supposed best player in the draft this year.

    Having said that, I wasn't that familiar with him coming out of high school, and I'm not really an advocate of drafting toolsy H School OFs in the first round anyway, so I'm not gonna dog the Twins for missing him. I wasn't, however, thrilled with the Gibson pick. Too risky with injury history before he was drafted.

    I will, however, continue to dog the Twins for not getting Pedroia cause I wanted them to draft him with their first pick in 2004...and their 2nd pick, 3rd pick, 4th pick, 5th pick and 6th pick... :-)

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post

    I don't believe he'd be in the majors if he had been drafted by us.
    Well then you'd be wrong.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Yes, Trout would be in the majors if he was drafted by the Twins. That's not even up for debate. The guy absolutely raked at every level of the minors.

    Would he have been called up in May of this year? I don't know about that but we would have seen him by the end of the season. There is a ridiculous myth surrounding the Twins that they coddle their players in the minors... News flash: those players they "coddle" just aren't that good (yet). The last time I was really irritated with the Twins about a minor league player was Jason Bartlett. Before that, it was Justin Morneau. Right now, it's Slama.

    That's three players in a decade, one of which turned into a middling position player while the jury is still completely out on the other. The only sure thing of the bunch was Morneau and he stumbled quite a bit in his first cup of coffee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post

    I don't believe he'd be in the majors if he had been drafted by us.
    Well then you'd be wrong.
    Sure I am

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post

    I don't believe he'd be in the majors if he had been drafted by us.
    Well then you'd be wrong.
    Sure I am
    See: Joe Mauer (who ended up having only about 20 more games in the minors then trout, and didn't come close to matching his dominance during that time.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Yes, Trout would be in the majors if he was drafted by the Twins. That's not even up for debate. The guy absolutely raked at every level of the minors.

    Would he have been called up in May of this year? I don't know about that but we would have seen him by the end of the season. There is a ridiculous myth surrounding the Twins that they coddle their players in the minors... News flash: those players they "coddle" just aren't that good (yet). The last time I was really irritated with the Twins about a minor league player was Jason Bartlett. Before that, it was Justin Morneau. Right now, it's Slama.

    That's three players in a decade, one of which turned into a middling position player while the jury is still completely out on the other. The only sure thing of the bunch was Morneau and he stumbled quite a bit in his first cup of coffee.
    I thought they handled Morneau for the most part correctly, seeing how they had doug mientkiewicz coming off a very solid year in 2003, the prob waited a bit to long to trade mientkiewicz, but I have a feeling they were wanting his value to get up a little as he really was struggling by the time they traded him.

    Bartlett, and Slama aren't exactly the most talented players in the world, so even though its frustrating its not a huge deal.

    It also should be noted that rushing prospects for the sake of rushing them fails more then it succeeds: See:Carlos Gomez

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I thought they handled Morneau for the most part correctly, seeing how they had doug mientkiewicz coming off a very solid year in 2003, the prob waited a bit to long to trade mientkiewicz, but I have a feeling they were wanting his value to get up a little as he really was struggling by the time they traded him.

    Bartlett, and Slama aren't exactly the most talented players in the world, so even though its frustrating its not a huge deal.

    It also should be noted that rushing prospects for the sake of rushing them fails more then it succeeds: See:Carlos Gomez
    I was of the opinion that JR should have done what he did with Pierzynski/Mauer for Mientkiewicz/Morneau. Maybe he learned his lesson from sticking with Mientkiewicz too long and that's why we saw Pierzynski dished to the Giants.

    The Twins should have received more for Mientkiewicz but whatever, that situation is long gone. My point is that there have been very few players who have sat in the minors for too long.

    Gardy's management of some of these players (Cuddyer, Kubel) early in their careers once they were on the Major League roster was more problematic, in my opinion.

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    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    To me, Brian Dozier looks like an apt comparison of how Trout might have progressed with the Twins. Also taken in the 2009 draft, Dozier moved through the minors at the same speed and was given an MLB starting position in a similar time frame as Trout. The difference is that Dozier was drafted as a 21-year old while Trout was 17 - although I don't know that the Twins would have a different strategy for the development of collegians versus high-schoolers. Or international players.

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    I decided to take the time machine back to 2000 and look at the drafts since then - I almost threw up when I saw what our rotation could have been. There is no way we would have lost 90+ games. Let's see what could have been.

    Year Round Pick Available
    2000 1 Adam Johnson Chase Utley
    2 Tagg Bozied Xavier Nady
    3 JD Durbin Chad Qualls
    2001 1 Joe Mauer
    2 Scott Tyler JJ Hardy
    3 Jose Morales Scott Harriston
    4 Angel Garcia Ricky Nolasco
    2002 1 Denard Span
    2 Jesse Crain
    3 Mark Sauls Josh Johnson
    2003 1 Matt Moses Chad Billingsley
    2 Scott Baker
    3 Johnny Woodward Jonathan Papelbon
    2004 1A Trevor Plouffe
    1B Glen Perkins
    1C Kyle Waldrop Gio Gonzolez
    2A Matt Fox Reid Brignac
    2B Anthony Swarzak Dustin Pedroia
    2005 1 Matt Garza
    Sand A Hank Sanchez Clay Buchholz
    Sand B Drew Thompson Taylor Teagarden
    2A Paul Kelly Chase Headley
    2B Kevin Slowey Jeremy Hellickson
    3 Brian Duensing
    2006 1 Chris Parmelee
    2 Joe Benson
    3 Tyler Robertson
    2007 1 Ben Revere
    2 Danny Rams Jonathan Lucroy
    3 Angel Morales
    2008 1A Aaron Hicks
    1B Carlos Gutierrez Lonnie Chisenhall
    Sand Shooter Hunt Jason Kipnis
    2 Tyler Landedorf ???
    3 Bobby Lanigan ???
    2009 1 Kyle Gibson Mike Trout

    In the 3 drafts since 2009, it's still too early to judge. But our scouting was terrible from 2000-2005. We could have had a rotation of Chad Billingsley, Gio Gonzolez, Jeremy Hellickson, Clay Buchholz, and Josh Johnson. And we could have had other options including Matt Garza, and Ricky Nolasco, and then we could have drafted Mike Trout instead of Gibson. And the infield would not have been the problem it is today. Boy, talk about woulda, shoulda, coulda.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Going back and playing captain hindsight on the freaking baseball draft is a futile endeavor. You act like guys like Josh Johnson etc were clearly "can't miss" guys and everybody but the Twins knew this, when it clearly isn't the case. Also shouldn't the other 31 teams be embarrassed they didn't Take Jason Kubel in the first 16 rounds or whatever?

    Would it have been nice to get Trout? No doubt, but Gibson at least is looking like a potential very good #2, if you can grab that in the draft its a success. Hopefully Plouffe continues to produce, two years ago the 2004 draft class was looking like a complete lost cause, if Perkins ends up being a good closer and Plouffe at least a average starting 3B with pop it turns out to be somewhat of a win.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Going back and playing captain hindsight on the freaking baseball draft is a futile endeavor. You act like guys like Josh Johnson etc were clearly "can't miss" guys and everybody but the Twins knew this, when it clearly isn't the case. Also shouldn't the other 31 teams be embarrassed they didn't Take Jason Kubel in the first 16 rounds or whatever?
    Johnson was an obvious "can't miss" prospect. After all, it's not as if every team in baseball passed on him.

    Twice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    See: Joe Mauer (who ended up having only about 20 more games in the minors then trout, and didn't come close to matching his dominance during that time.
    Joe Mauer was a #1 pick from the local area...and you're comparing numbers from a catcher as opposed to an OF. And then there's the OFs we have in the system too.

    In any event, NO ONE can say with CERTAINTY he'd be in the majors by now or not if we had drafted him...which is why I said I don't think he would instead of being 100% decisive. My crystal ball isn't as good as some I guess...

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    I wasn't trying to play "Captain Hindsight" as you say - I was just having fun and looking at what could have been. I know we never would have had a rotation like I laid out, or the potential team. It would have been way too expensive for the reality which is our Twins. My main point is that the Twins are a team that lives and dies on their farm system. And because of that, they live and die by the draft, and a number of those players would have been very tradable to restock the farm clubs once they got too expensive.

    Obviously, the Twins had a number of very good to great (or potential) first round choices as well - Torri Hunter, Michael Cuddyer, Joe Mauer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, Trevor Plouffe, Glen Perkins, Chris Parmelee, Aaron Hicks, Kyle Gibson, and Byron Buxton. But, the Twins had way too many early round draft busts from 2000-2005, guys that didn't even smell AAA, let alone MLB. That's why we're in the place we are today. I also believe that the last several years have been better, but only time will tell.
    Last edited by ScottyB; 11-16-2012 at 12:54 PM.

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    All sorts of "We could have had" players out there. Don't get too hard on the Twins drafting, Oakland hasn't drafted a player that latter had a + WAR in the majors since 2006. The players from 06 were all traded, too. The same for Boston with Bill James to help them. The Yankees have less in numbers produced than the Twins since 2000. The SABR people do no better than the money people. In 2005 Tampa Bay drafted Longoria and Hellickson. 2006, they got Price and Jennings. Not much help since then either.

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Joe Mauer was a #1 pick from the local area...and you're comparing numbers from a catcher as opposed to an OF.
    What do those two things have anything to do with the topic at hand?

    Yes, Mike Trout would be in the majors by now with the Twins (assuming he produced similarly in the minors-plus no injuries), it's really not that difficult of a concept. The Twins front office isn't the bumbling bunch of idiots that geniuses like Thrylos and others on this board try to make them out to be.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    See: Joe Mauer (who ended up having only about 20 more games in the minors then trout, and didn't come close to matching his dominance during that time.
    Joe Mauer was a #1 pick from the local area...and you're comparing numbers from a catcher as opposed to an OF.
    Which makes Dave's case stronger, not weaker. It's far more difficult for a catcher to move through any farm system quickly than it is for an outfielder to do the same. It usually takes a few years for a catcher to learn how to call the game on a professional level. An outfielder just has to run fast and open his glove (a simplified take on it but mostly true).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    An outfielder just has to run fast and open his glove (a simplified take on it but mostly true).
    Oh, and he doesn't have to close his glove at just the right time? Hmmmm???? C'mon, man, you're smarter than that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    See: Joe Mauer (who ended up having only about 20 more games in the minors then trout, and didn't come close to matching his dominance during that time.
    Joe Mauer was a #1 pick from the local area...and you're comparing numbers from a catcher as opposed to an OF.
    Which makes Dave's case stronger, not weaker. It's far more difficult for a catcher to move through any farm system quickly than it is for an outfielder to do the same. It usually takes a few years for a catcher to learn how to call the game on a professional level. An outfielder just has to run fast and open his glove (a simplified take on it but mostly true).
    Not necessarily...not for a #1 overall pick with no one in front of him worth a darn in the minors. And it's not like they didn't know what they had in him all along. With us being supposedly very strong in OF prospects, that would have factored into Trout's rise to the majors as well.

    We can keep arguing this all day long...but we don't know. I don't, you don't, Dave doesn't. No one can say with certainty and be taken as fact. It's all hypothetical.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 11-16-2012 at 01:57 PM.

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