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Thread: Ryan removes "Interim" label from his title

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    Wow, that list is your argument for maintaining the status quo? They ran off Garza, Perkins was basically ready to be run off when he failed to develop as a starter and they stumbled on him as an effective bullpen option with the injury collapses of Nathan and Capps, every other pitcher on this list is:

    a has-been who was also run off-
    a "I don't know how to use a lefty who can only get out lefties"- and-
    a wish, a hope and a prayer that he will ever pan out as anything above a #4-5 starter.

    The jury is still out on every single one of the position players you mention, as well- not one "can't-miss" guy among them.

    While the two FA pickups worked out, they were replacements for the losses of 4 players- Thome, Cuddyer, Young and Kubel. The two FAs also had career years in 2012, can they do it again or should they have been flipped so that for once, the Twins could be sellers when their value was at its highest?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    +1.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesferrell View Post
    I guess people forgot how good Terry Ryan was in his first stint as GM. You got to have patience with this.
    I think that most people forgot how bad also was Terry Ryan as a GM in his first part of his first stint with the Twins. Ryan was a GM for the Twins from 1994-2006 and in 2012. During that 14 year stint the Twins

    Won the division 4 times
    finished second 1 time
    finished third 1 time
    finished fourth 4 times
    finished last 4 times

    and from those 14 seasons, the Twins have had winning records only 6.
    And he was fine with the contraction...
    and he undid what McPhail did.

    So tell me, as a whole is that "good" or "bad"?
    I guess Thyrlos forgets how bad the Twins were in 1993 with not much in the farm system. Contrasr that with how ell the Twins were doing when Ryan left.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesferrell View Post
    I guess people forgot how good Terry Ryan was in his first stint as GM. You got to have patience with this.
    I think that most people forgot how bad also was Terry Ryan as a GM in his first part of his first stint with the Twins. Ryan was a GM for the Twins from 1994-2006 and in 2012. During that 14 year stint the Twins

    Won the division 4 times
    finished second 1 time
    finished third 1 time
    finished fourth 4 times
    finished last 4 times

    and from those 14 seasons, the Twins have had winning records only 6.
    And he was fine with the contraction...
    and he undid what McPhail did.

    So tell me, as a whole is that "good" or "bad"?
    I guess Thyrlos forgets how bad the Twins were in 1993 with not much in the farm system. Contrasr that with how ell the Twins were doing when Ryan left.
    He doesn't want to let logic get in the way of making a point. Obviously, we should treat Ryan's early years where he inherited a bad team (71 wins in 1993) with the same weight we treat his later years where the Twins were perennial contenders.

    Otherwise, it's much harder to make a case that Ryan is a bad GM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    +1.
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    If the status quo was acceptable no one would have been let go. It takes time to turn an organization around. Unless you have $200 million to spend this will take time. Starting Pitching does not grow on trees.
    Look at the draft this year to see how Ryan has adapted to stuff pitchers, rather than pitch to contact. He also seems to have put Gardy on notice that if he feels Gardy is not getting the best of his talent, he will be gone during or after next year. Poland's have a new set of economics, based on information from Ruesse's column in the Star Trib. They need to fill seats and 70 - 80 win seasons will not do it.
    Draft in later first round and below is a crapshoot. Ryan seems to have done well last year and we will see how many of these players make the major leagues in the next 3 years. Give this some time.
    Remember the grass is not always as green as it seems on the other side of the fence, checkout Kansas City.
    This is why I was saying he shouldn't be fired, but I'd like to see more of him before crowning him GM for the next decade.

    Firing coaches has little to do with the status quo, as they don't really matter one way or another with this team. The status quo I was referring to is their refusal to sign even decent SP, continually trying the same type of player in the MI, refusing to move players of value through two horrible seasons, and, at least at the surface, what seems like an archaic system of player evaluation.

    There were some positives, Doumit, Hammer, Burton. The draft strategy looks better but we'll see if it pans out. But there were some big failures and concerns, too: Using ST stats to evaluate players, no significant trades (as mentioned above), moving up players when they clearly weren't ready or no spot for them to play, Marquis, stubbornly sticking with terrible pitchers in the pen when others had at least deserved a look, and comments that seem to indicaten we're in for more of the same.
    Last edited by Alex; 10-06-2012 at 08:33 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    Wow, that list is your argument for maintaining the status quo? They ran off Garza, Perkins was basically ready to be run off when he failed to develop as a starter and they stumbled on him as an effective bullpen option with the injury collapses of Nathan and Capps, every other pitcher on this list is:

    a has-been who was also run off-
    a "I don't know how to use a lefty who can only get out lefties"- and-
    a wish, a hope and a prayer that he will ever pan out as anything above a #4-5 starter.

    The jury is still out on every single one of the position players you mention, as well- not one "can't-miss" guy among them.

    While the two FA pickups worked out, they were replacements for the losses of 4 players- Thome, Cuddyer, Young and Kubel. The two FAs also had career years in 2012, can they do it again or should they have been flipped so that for once, the Twins could be sellers when their value was at its highest?
    perhaps you missed what I wrote the first time. How much blame should ryan get during BS's time as GM? Absolutely awful decisions were and he was still in the FO but I don't how much control/input he had. I also said it might be too early to tell about the horrific drafting and development the Twins had from '04-'09. I'm guessing you don't really understand what horrific means. They haven't had a lot of success from the draft recently but they are still getting solid ballplayers.

    I'm not sure how you can be critical of last year's offseason. they picked up better ballplayers at half the cost and got 3 extra draft picks. I think that is a pretty outstanding job. I'm also not sure I would call them career years. willingham has a .845 career OPS and this year he had a .890 OPS. Doumit had a .777 OPS this year and a .771 career OPS.

    Ryan has made bad decisions (Capps definitely) and I'll criticize him but I think you are being ridiculous.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.
    The Twins have not added a key piece from the minors in six seasons. Horrific is a very fair term.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.


    The Twins have not added a key piece from the minors in six seasons. Horrific is a very fair term.
    uh...I would say Denard Span is a pretty key piece, and without Ben Revere I'm guessing we would have lost a lot more games the last two years.

    And while they may not have been key pieces every year they've been with the team, Blackburn, Slowey, and Perkins have all been critical parts of the team and various times.

    No, they haven't had any Mike Trouts or Stephen Strassbergs, but how many teams have?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spideyo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kobs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.


    The Twins have not added a key piece from the minors in six seasons. Horrific is a very fair term.
    uh...I would say Denard Span is a pretty key piece, and without Ben Revere I'm guessing we would have lost a lot more games the last two years.

    And while they may not have been key pieces every year they've been with the team, Blackburn, Slowey, and Perkins have all been critical parts of the team and various times.

    No, they haven't had any Mike Trouts or Stephen Strassbergs, but how many teams have?
    The Twins wouldn't have lost "a lot" more games without Joe Mauer, much less without a mediocre player like Ben Revere. These players might be the key to a AAA title run; in the majors, they are a group of unremarkable or worse ballplayers. That's why the Twins have lost 195 games in the last two seasons.

  11. #31
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Oh, we need more Joe Mauer's. Well, there you go.

  12. #32
    I have to say, I'm a lot younger then most of the posters on this site. However, I am ashamed to be lumped into the same category as a "fan". I was 5 when the Twins won in '89. I stayed up way past my bed time in '91 to watch Puck pick a homerun out of the air against the plexy in the Dome. How can you call yourselves "fans when all most of you do is whine and complain about every tiny little aspect of the team you are supposed to love, for better or worse? Yes, they suck. Yes, they sucked last year too. Yes, they play in a piss poor division. But, this is baseball. This is a love afair with a sport that all of us grew up with. I never got to see The Killer and Carew. But I did get Puck, Hreby, and yes, even Chuck when he was an all-star Twin. This team, My team, will come back to the top of this league. But right now, they, like so many other teams in this league are at a point when they need to shut down and reload what made them great in the first place. Look at the Nats. how many years did they suck before they exploded back onto the radar? The Twins will make it back. TR is a good GM, he is smart and he has been at this long enough to not make knee-jerk reactions. He gave the coaches a year to turn things around, and when they failed, he sent a message. Now, Gardy and Andy know that they are on the block, and they had better do it better, and do it right or they are next. It shows the players that the FO is not going to sit back and let years like this build up. They are going to do what they need to do to get this team back to the top. How about we stop bickering over a lost season, that we all knew was coming, and focus on the good things that have come out of this train wreck. Have Faith, or please don't call yourselves fans, that just makes the rest of us look bad.

    Respectfully,
    SPC David Saxton
    US Army
    Afghanistan

    Go Twins!
    Blessed are the peace makers; for they shall be named the children of God. Matthew 5:9

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesaxton View Post
    I have to say, I'm a lot younger then most of the posters on this site. However, I am ashamed to be lumped into the same category as a "fan". I was 5 when the Twins won in '89. I stayed up way past my bed time in '91 to watch Puck pick a homerun out of the air against the plexy in the Dome. How can you call yourselves "fans when all most of you do is whine and complain about every tiny little aspect of the team you are supposed to love, for better or worse? Yes, they suck. Yes, they sucked last year too. Yes, they play in a piss poor division. But, this is baseball. This is a love afair with a sport that all of us grew up with. I never got to see The Killer and Carew. But I did get Puck, Hreby, and yes, even Chuck when he was an all-star Twin. This team, My team, will come back to the top of this league. But right now, they, like so many other teams in this league are at a point when they need to shut down and reload what made them great in the first place. Look at the Nats. how many years did they suck before they exploded back onto the radar? The Twins will make it back. TR is a good GM, he is smart and he has been at this long enough to not make knee-jerk reactions. He gave the coaches a year to turn things around, and when they failed, he sent a message. Now, Gardy and Andy know that they are on the block, and they had better do it better, and do it right or they are next. It shows the players that the FO is not going to sit back and let years like this build up. They are going to do what they need to do to get this team back to the top. How about we stop bickering over a lost season, that we all knew was coming, and focus on the good things that have come out of this train wreck. Have Faith, or please don't call yourselves fans, that just makes the rest of us look bad.

    Respectfully,
    SPC David Saxton
    US Army
    Afghanistan

    Go Twins!
    Your definition of being a fan is not my definition of being a fan, and I'd thank you not to try to impose your definition on me.

  14. #34
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    If the Twins were to replicate the last six years of call ups with exact duplicates of those players over the next six years, I'd take the over at 550 losses.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    Wow, that list is your argument for maintaining the status quo? They ran off Garza, Perkins was basically ready to be run off when he failed to develop as a starter and they stumbled on him as an effective bullpen option with the injury collapses of Nathan and Capps, every other pitcher on this list is:

    a has-been who was also run off-
    a "I don't know how to use a lefty who can only get out lefties"- and-
    a wish, a hope and a prayer that he will ever pan out as anything above a #4-5 starter.

    The jury is still out on every single one of the position players you mention, as well- not one "can't-miss" guy among them.

    While the two FA pickups worked out, they were replacements for the losses of 4 players- Thome, Cuddyer, Young and Kubel. The two FAs also had career years in 2012, can they do it again or should they have been flipped so that for once, the Twins could be sellers when their value was at its highest?
    perhaps you missed what I wrote the first time. How much blame should ryan get during BS's time as GM? Absolutely awful decisions were and he was still in the FO but I don't how much control/input he had. I also said it might be too early to tell about the horrific drafting and development the Twins had from '04-'09. I'm guessing you don't really understand what horrific means. They haven't had a lot of success from the draft recently but they are still getting solid ballplayers.

    I'm not sure how you can be critical of last year's offseason. they picked up better ballplayers at half the cost and got 3 extra draft picks. I think that is a pretty outstanding job. I'm also not sure I would call them career years. willingham has a .845 career OPS and this year he had a .890 OPS. Doumit had a .777 OPS this year and a .771 career OPS.

    Ryan has made bad decisions (Capps definitely) and I'll criticize him but I think you are being ridiculous.
    I know what the term horrific means and didn't use that term, I merely stated that the names you put up is an embarrassing defense for maintaining the status quo. To reiterate, they ran off Garza and Slowey and Perkins was about to be the next one- from a team with no pitching in the pipeline behind them!

    The ridiculousness in this subject is pretending that the mismanagement since 2004 didn't really occur and that everything will be just fine once we just give a little more time to maintaining the status quo thinking for the Twins' ship to be righted. This team, because of the mismanagment starting at the close of the first Ryan era and throughout the BS era, should be in major rebuild mode. Instead, Ryan Era Redux is trying to have it both ways- contender and rebuilder- and that never works.

    Regarding the FA pickups. I wasn't critical about them in particular. At least one of the sandwich picks looks like it might work out great. The FAs were good pickups- just misguided thinking in their worth to the team, given the Twins' predicament- clearly a rebuilder, not a contender. Let's see their numbers: Willingham, 34 years old in 2013. Career highs in HR, 2B, SLG, RBI, BB, WAR, PA, wOBA, Runs Scored, Games Played. Doumit, 32 years old in 2013. Career highs in HR, 2B, RBI, PA, Games Played. These are guys that played well and saved the team money, money "saved" that should have been spent to upgrade weaknesses in the MI and SP. So they didn't improve the team as much as replace what 4 players gave them the year before (Willingham/Doumit 5.5 combined WAR in 2012 vs. a combined 2011 WAR of 5.7 for the other 4 players). At this point, as much as I appreciate what they have done to make 2012 interesting, they should have been/should still be offered up for what the market will bring while their market value is at its highest. Both will be irrelevant by the time the next wave of talent is ready to compete. Do you honestly see further upside as members of the MN Twins? They also should have acquired at least 2 starting pitchers on one-year deals for additional short-term bolstering and as potential trade chips with low risk to the club.

    In the meantime, we have pitchers and position players ungrounded, and apparently untrained, in basic baseball fundamentals (holding runners, bunting, baserunning, hitting cutoffs, situational hitting and fielding, etc.) by the time they reach Target Field. A pitching staff chock full of pitch-to-contact mediocrity. We have a front office that hasn't produced a trade or a draft pick that has been a meaningful impact player for any extended period of time since who knows when. We've sat in the prime waiver wire spot at the bottom of the AL for two years now and have declined taking advantage of it time and time again. I never used the term horrific and wouldn't necessarily characterize that era as such, but Ryan was in on the contraction plot and started the downward spiral on talent development before his first departure.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    +1.
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.
    I review the drafts pretty darn closely and I would say the Twins are bottom 5 in MLB over the last 6-8 years. Do not forget that TR and his good ole boys have been doing the scouting/drafting over that time so you cannot blame BS.

    If you use Plouffe, Parmelee and Revere as examples of potential prospects I would say that is worse than horrific. These 3 guys are replacement level at best and if you follow the BP or Klaw chats you will find that scouts agree that Plouffe and Parmelee will never make it in the bigs as regulars. I am not as critical as BP and Klaw on Revere because I think he can be a decent platoon or 4th OF on a competitive team.

    The main issue is TR and his boys have been the worst in baseball at drafting arms. TB drafts near the bottom each year and look at their farm system. Look at where they drafted their starters and you will see you don't need to have top 5 picks to get good pitching prospects. The difference with TB is they are constantly hiring fresh, young, forward thinkers who can use both their scouting eye and data to find that .0001% that distinguishes a good pitcher from the garbage the Twins always draft.

    The Twins desparately need a fresh prospective in the FO. What TR did in the 90's was great but the game and scouting has changed a lot since then.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I guess your thoughts on Ryan's ability should hinge on how responsible he was for the awful BS era. the 90's were awful and despite losing in the playoffs the 2000's were very good for a team on a shoestring budget. At that time many wondered what Ryan could do with an adequate budget. He now has a budget to work with and he made two outstanding FA pickups last season.

    It might also too early to call the drafting and developing horrific. The horrific years of the draft (2004-2009) include Plouffe, Perkins, Slowey, Garza, Duensing, Parmelee, Hicks, Benson, Revere and Gibson. they made an awful trade with Garza but they still drafted and developed him. It's also worth pointing out that once you get outside of the top the draft is largely hit and miss and that is where the Twins drafted for the entire decade.
    +1.
    Yep. People who complain incessantly about "horrific" drafts haven't looked at many drafts. The Twins were mediocre, maybe even a smidge of the "bad" side of things. They drafted several prep players that are just starting to join the team in Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere. They had Garza (ugh), Perkins, and Duensing earlier. Nothing to rave about but far from horrific.

    The Cubs and Astros, now those were some horrific drafts.
    I review the drafts pretty darn closely and I would say the Twins are bottom 5 in MLB over the last 6-8 years. Do not forget that TR and his good ole boys have been doing the scouting/drafting over that time so you cannot blame BS.

    If you use Plouffe, Parmelee and Revere as examples of potential prospects I would say that is worse than horrific. These 3 guys are replacement level at best and if you follow the BP or Klaw chats you will find that scouts agree that Plouffe and Parmelee will never make it in the bigs as regulars. I am not as critical as BP and Klaw on Revere because I think he can be a decent platoon or 4th OF on a competitive team.

    The main issue is TR and his boys have been the worst in baseball at drafting arms. TB drafts near the bottom each year and look at their farm system. Look at where they drafted their starters and you will see you don't need to have top 5 picks to get good pitching prospects. The difference with TB is they are constantly hiring fresh, young, forward thinkers who can use both their scouting eye and data to find that .0001% that distinguishes a good pitcher from the garbage the Twins always draft.

    The Twins desparately need a fresh prospective in the FO. What TR did in the 90's was great but the game and scouting has changed a lot since then.
    The Rays have solid starters. They needed every arm available for their bullpen. They did not trade any of the starters to get help for their offense when they still had a chance for the playoffs. This would suggest to me that Tampa does not think highly of what is behind their current 5 starters. Through the recent years though they have only traded two of them. They got a poor return for Garza, great return for Kasmir as he was falling apart and highly paid. The "forward thinking" staff has drafted a putrid offense. The offense they got from the Garza and Kasmir trades has been negligible. The other fact you appear not to notice is half of the current staff was drafted by La Marr, not Friedman. So perhaps you might want to reconsider your love affair with your so called great minds. Need I remind you Theo Epstein was called a great young baseball mind. He has done what for the Cubs. Andy McPhail was called a great young mind, how did he do after leaving the Twins?
    Last edited by old nurse; 10-07-2012 at 04:29 PM.

  18. #38
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Need I remind you Theo Epstein was called a great young baseball mind. He has done what for the Cubs.
    Seriously?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
    [

    I review the drafts pretty darn closely and I would say the Twins are bottom 5 in MLB over the last 6-8 years. Do not forget that TR and his good ole boys have been doing the scouting/drafting over that time so you cannot blame BS.

    If you use Plouffe, Parmelee and Revere as examples of potential prospects I would say that is worse than horrific. These 3 guys are replacement level at best and if you follow the BP or Klaw chats you will find that scouts agree that Plouffe and Parmelee will never make it in the bigs as regulars. I am not as critical as BP and Klaw on Revere because I think he can be a decent platoon or 4th OF on a competitive team.

    The Twins desparately need a fresh prospective in the FO. What TR did in the 90's was great but the game and scouting has changed a lot since then.
    I'm going to contend that this is a bunch of garbage. Every team has a rough stretch in the draft and you can't pick out one team that has been successful to say otherwise. Kobs is absolutely right that the Twins can't have another draft stretch like 04-08 but that horrific stretch is still producing big league regulars which some teams haven't even been able to do. They don't have a lot of arms in the system still but overall the Twins have a very strong farm system and Ryan was part of that effort even if he wasn't GM.

    I think you're also exaggerating when you say 6-8 years. there are 4-5 yrs that are unimpressive but if you want to go further than that then you are going to need to include drafts that featured Hicks and Gibson or drafts that featured Baker, Span and Mauer.

    Replacement level at best? i call complete bull. Plouffe just hit 24 HR's in 2/3's of season that included an injured hand. Even if you call this season his best that is WAY ABOVE replacement level. Parmelee was just named the 5th best int'l league prospect by BA. Neither of these guys will be all stars but replacement level? try not to exaggerate.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Need I remind you Theo Epstein was called a great young baseball mind. He has done what for the Cubs.
    Seriously?
    Not exactly. Anybody looks great when the situations work, causation and correlation. Although a president/GM can do moves that completely screw up an organization, they do not completely fix an organization in a vacuum. Epstein did have players in hand and had the right manager, a few PEDS and he looks great. Look at the organizations that sustain good teams through the years. The Yankees have very few drafted players play for them. They keep what they view as the cream and trade for players or sign them. Atlanta and St Louis have built through developing players and trading for a few and signing an occasional free agent. The Twins won with a changing core. When they quit trading veterans for prospects, they fell apart shortly thereafter. Tampa Bay has had a run with a group of core players. We will see if their success continues as the core shifts.
    Ryan started with an organization with not much talent. He built the team through drafts and astute trades. He got a few veterans with a little gas left in the tank that served for a few years, he traded some for talent before they became free agents. I suspect why Hunter was not traded was because teams were wary of trading with Ryan. That leaves draft picks being better than what was offered. Why could Ryan pluck talent off other teams? I would contend good scouting. The same scouting department that could not apply the same talents at an amateur level to find great talent. That is taking a Shooter Hunt rather than a Lance Lynn selected a few picks later (cherry picked, but there would be other examples if I but looked)

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