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Thread: Debate I

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    That in itself is probably my biggest beef with Romney. Who is this guy?
    I've heard people say they will support Mitt because they don't like Obama, to which I reply, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't." We won't know who we'd be getting until it's too late. Not that I would've voted for him anyway. Still not sure who I'll vote for but likely for the devil I know.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    He's not talking about advertising though. Sure Obama's ads distort the truth, but it's far different for a candidate to be the mouth piece for such distortions.
    Did a bad debate showing collectively crotch-kick the intelligence of all liberals? His point was that it was ridiculous that people got swayed by a debate that he perceives as distorted. The fact is - both sides use much shorter, much more distorted efforts to sway people CONSTANTLY. And IT WORKS. It was a stupid point that I'm hearing from lots of people on the left. If Romney was distorted and vague in a debate and it was effective - it's nothing new to politics. And it's insanely stupid to suggest otherwise.

    Lefties just need to accept that their guy had a bad showing. I still think he's the lead dog in the race, but he opened a door for Romney that Romney desperately needed. It had nothing to do with Romney and everything to do with his poor showing. There was nothing unique about the debate either. The excuses just get old, so I apologize if my patience with them is thin.

  3. #23
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    but after seeing Mitt waffle constantly and directly contradict his own opinions from his time as Governor, I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the man. I've gone from slightly positive to ambivalent to believing he is a deceitful menace in the course of a year. Pretty amazing, actually.
    In principle I agree. But here's the thing - aren't both bases basically forcing candidates into insane primary positions? We saw a very different Obama last year after his primary too. To me, one reason I am at least entertaining Romney is that I'm seeing the man who actually governed in a manner I can respect re-emerge. If my vote goes to that man, I guess I can forgive the primaries as a means to an end. But I'm very cautious because of what the primaries showed.

  4. #24
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    but after seeing Mitt waffle constantly and directly contradict his own opinions from his time as Governor, I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the man. I've gone from slightly positive to ambivalent to believing he is a deceitful menace in the course of a year. Pretty amazing, actually.
    In principle I agree. But here's the thing - aren't both bases basically forcing candidates into insane primary positions? We saw a very different Obama last year after his primary too. To me, one reason I am at least entertaining Romney is that I'm seeing the man who actually governed in a manner I can respect re-emerge. If my vote goes to that man, I guess I can forgive the primaries as a means to an end. But I'm very cautious because of what the primaries showed.
    It's one of the biggest problems with the primary process but Romney is going above and beyond with talking out of both sides of his mouth. I expect to see a little back-tracking and double-speak in an election campaign. What I don't expect to see are direct contradictions from previous stances and lots of 'em... on almost a daily basis.

    At this point, I have no idea what to expect from the man and that virtually negates any chance he has of getting my vote. All I see is a guy who is pushing another form of trickle-down (really, again?) and being incredibly vague on how he plans to balance the budget when simple math says it's impossible based on the few details he has given us. If he had the courage to stand up and actually lay out a real plan, I'd listen. I may disagree with that plan, but I'd at least listen to it and give it a fair shot. Romney has been far too cryptic for my liking (as was Obama during 2008), which leads me to wonder if he has any conviction at all.

  5. #25
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The fact is - both sides use much shorter, much more distorted efforts to sway people CONSTANTLY. And IT WORKS.
    The notion that the distortion from left versus right is equivalent in degree or amount is asinine. Sure, Obama and liberals distort the truth and their positions for political convenience, but it is nowhere near the same kind of distortion that happens on the right. The right doesn't believe in evolution; many think Obama is a Muslim The equivalency you are trying to make is absurd. Again, sure both sides lie, but the scope of the lie and the amount of lies actually do matter.

    Recapping the position changes: Obama did adopt a healthcare mandate and a more hawkish policy on foreign, but beyond that I think you'd be hard pressed to find substantive differences between Obama's primary policy and his general election policies. As for Romney, it's EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, from abortion to taxes to healthcare. I just don't get why you'd try to equate the two candidates, in terms of their distortion, when it's so clear one is so heavy in the red. I just don't get your angle.

  6. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    All I see is a guy who is pushing another form of trickle-down (really, again?) and being incredibly vague on how he plans to balance the budget when simple math says it's impossible based on the few details he has given us. If he had the courage to stand up and actually lay out a real plan, I'd listen. I may disagree with that plan, but I'd at least listen to it and give it a fair shot.
    This. What the **** is Romney's plan? All best parts of the best ideas that we've seen so far? Oh boy!

  7. #27
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I just don't get your angle.
    Because you can't see past your own particular political angle. I haven't started a "Lies" tally Dems vs. Repubs - perhaps you should share yours? The notion of one lie being "more" than another is purely based off of perception. We could compare lists on that all day and it wouldn't matter. You don't see the angle because your political persuasion doesn't want you to. I'll recap anyway:

    1) Suggesting that people changing their minds from a debate are shallow is truly asinine. Especially given how much both parties use advertising to change minds. If you watched the debate, paid attention, and thought about it - to me that's a great thing. Regardless of political orientation. We should be pleased people are tuning in rather than disparaging them for taking it seriously.
    2) The primary process presents distorted candidates - it did for McCain, Obama, Hillary, Romney, etc. It's something we're all going to have to accept as long as it's around.
    3) Distortion is a common political ploy that neither party holds a monopoly on. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
    4) Obama lost that debate at a time when a decisive win could have made his re-election pretty much a given. If lefties want to come up with excuses for that I find it pathetic. Apparently, yesterday, even Obama was tired of hearing it and came out and said the same thing.

  8. #28
    No one said anything about changing ones mind based on a commercial being any less shallow. Both just give more constant exposure to those who dont need it, and shut out those who do(every other parties candidates) But there is a big difference between exagerating or omitting, and completely reversing ones stance. Are both dishonest? Yeah. But the later tends to fall into the outright lie category usually.

    Its like when you hear the mouthpieces say obama lied, they point to something he promised In 2007-8 that hasnt materialed. When people call romney out, they just point to almost anything he's said, cause he's probably claimed the exact opposite.

  9. #29
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I just don't get your angle.
    Because you can't see past your own particular political angle. I haven't started a "Lies" tally Dems vs. Repubs - perhaps you should share yours? The notion of one lie being "more" than another is purely based off of perception. We could compare lists on that all day and it wouldn't matter. You don't see the angle because your political persuasion doesn't want you to. I'll recap anyway:

    1) Suggesting that people changing their minds from a debate are shallow is truly asinine. Especially given how much both parties use advertising to change minds. If you watched the debate, paid attention, and thought about it - to me that's a great thing. Regardless of political orientation. We should be pleased people are tuning in rather than disparaging them for taking it seriously.
    2) The primary process presents distorted candidates - it did for McCain, Obama, Hillary, Romney, etc. It's something we're all going to have to accept as long as it's around.
    3) Distortion is a common political ploy that neither party holds a monopoly on. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.
    4) Obama lost that debate at a time when a decisive win could have made his re-election pretty much a given. If lefties want to come up with excuses for that I find it pathetic. Apparently, yesterday, even Obama was tired of hearing it and came out and said the same thing.
    I don't disagree with 1 - 4. I simply disagree with your equivalency of the lies and the distortions. It's like you're trying to undercut the significance of Romney's switcharoo, by pointing out that all campaign ads are dishonest. Romney's makeover should disturb you and it is UNLIKE previous candidates.

  10. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I don't disagree with 1 - 4. I simply disagree with your equivalency of the lies and the distortions. It's like you're trying to undercut the significance of Romney's switcharoo, by pointing out that all campaign ads are dishonest. Romney's makeover should disturb you and it is UNLIKE previous candidates.
    I don't see the need to splice out who has worse lies or distortions because it a matter of opinion in most cases. As for Romney switching positions, I chalk it up to presenting himself as a character in the primaries. As a matter of principle I agree it's not tasteful, hence why he doesn't have my vote. But I do think we're going to see both parties veering more and more towards this happening with the extreme takes both bases are digging in with.

  11. #31
    You're right, its pretty much the same when republicans, for instance, imply that being gay is a crime punishable by stoning to death, and when democrats imply that rich people paying more in taxes will just magically make a company more willing to hire folks. Pretty much the same thing.

  12. #32
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flpmagikat View Post
    You're right, its pretty much the same when republicans, for instance, imply that being gay is a crime punishable by stoning to death, and when democrats imply that rich people paying more in taxes will just magically make a company more willing to hire folks. Pretty much the same thing.
    Well, that was a mighty fine example of how your personal beliefs can interfere with this kind of analysis. Look, one of the reasons I'm not a republican is because of the rhetoric against homosexuals. But I'm not so vain as to believe I have the ultimate checklist of who's distortions are worse. Hell, no offense, but I take the Bush administration's lies about Iraq and the recent distortions by the Obama administration about the cause of the embassy bombing as MUCH worse distortions. But that's just me, I won't hold anyone else to that because that's my own personal opinion.

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