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Thread: Mackey: Twins may make changes to field staff

  1. #21
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    Watching the Gophers get killed in Iowa City today was a reminder of the pain of firing someone just to 'do something.' The last two years have sucked, and baseball managers have less impact on wins and losses then any other coach, but I still don't want to be sitting here in 2017 having fired Gardy's replacement and just hoping that maybe the next guy can get us to the play-offs again.

    That said, I agree with those who advocate Bruno and/or Cuellar joining the staff.

  2. #22
    Wonder if they will give him the choice of either Vavra or Andy.
    Id like to see Andy go if its only one since its him that believes in the low pitch count and thats one of the first things that needs to be changed.
    Wonder how much better Gardy could manage if his staff isnt entirely made up of of 'his best friends in baseball' but actual coaches.

  3. #23
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    If they fire someone it will basically give the appearance of doing something without having to spend significant money doing something that might actually be more impactful (like signing FA pitchers not named Marquis).

  4. #24
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howeda7 View Post
    Watching the Gophers get killed in Iowa City today was a reminder of the pain of firing someone just to 'do something.' The last two years have sucked, and baseball managers have less impact on wins and losses then any other coach, but I still don't want to be sitting here in 2017 having fired Gardy's replacement and just hoping that maybe the next guy can get us to the play-offs again.



    That said, I agree with those who advocate Bruno and/or Cuellar joining the staff.
    Please tell me you're referring to Mason and not Brewster!!

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I have no problem with change... but... How does anyone know that Bruno is the answer?

    What makes people clamor for Bruno? Bruno may be great... I'm certainly not saying he won't be... I'm asking.... How does anyone know???

    Could it be that some are suggesting hires for 2013 based on name recognition. "I've heard of him" type thing. Bruno for Hitting Coach... Redmond for Manager.

    It makes me assume Bruno is suggested as a matter of convenience. Which is fine... But can we be a little constrained with the over trumpeting of Bruno... Assuming we know he's the guy... As opposed to simply being a guy we've heard of.

    Its one thing to think its time for replacements... It's another thing to passionately replace the replacements.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I have no problem with change... but... How does anyone know that Bruno is the answer?

    What makes people clamor for Bruno? Bruno may be great... I'm certainly not saying he won't be... I'm asking.... How does anyone know???
    Bruno's qualification is that He Is Fun. As evidence, I offer the anecdote I wrote for my Mastroianni adopt-a-prospect:
    http://www.twinsdaily.com/showthread...in-Mastroianni

  7. #27
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Wonder if they will give him the choice of either Vavra or Andy.
    Id like to see Andy go if its only one since its him that believes in the low pitch count and thats one of the first things that needs to be changed.
    Wonder how much better Gardy could manage if his staff isnt entirely made up of of 'his best friends in baseball' but actual coaches.
    You know, sometimes a manager will go to bat for his coaches. "You can fire them, but then you'll have to fire me." Not Gardy this time - "eh, someone's gonna get the ax from top management, I hear." If Gardy actually was OK with a firing, it should be him doing the firing, shouldn't it?

  8. #28
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    The "change for the sake of change" gong is ringing again.

    Maybe the Twins are bad because... wait for it... the starting pitching sucks?

    Hard to put a lot of blame on Anderson: Resurecting Burton, Diamond, and Perkins; a bunch of injuries in the last few years resulting in calling up unprepared players. Hard to blame Vavra. Look at all the career years players have had recently. He seems to be doing ok. Gardy is still being Gardy. Love him or hate him, he is giving the organization what they want. I don't think he will ever be fired.

    The overall organizational view worked for 10 years. It could work again, but a few things have bit them in the ass over the years. TJ injuries have depleted the pitching reserves. A handful of trades not working out. Not getting any return for Hunter, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Santana (nothing of value for Santana anyways). If the current group in the low minors comes up and hits the snot out of the ball in 2 years, all will be forgotten.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    It's real hard for anyone to know what are current coaches are capable of... or what they have accomplished without inside access to them.

    Who's to say that this year wasn't Anderson's finest hour. Maybe the pitching was very very very bad and Andy made them simply bad. Maybe he did some extroidanary work with what he had to work with.

    Maybe the pitching was going to be what it was going to be and he had no effect at all.

    Maybe we had enough arms to be capable and Andy spoiled it.

    I don't know... I just think the organization needs to shift directions a little and start sprinting to catch up.

    For that reason... A different hand holding the whip might... And I mean might... Be what is needed going forward.

    I may advocate change... But I do so without inside knowledge and I do so with full throated respect for the entire current staff.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    The "change for the sake of change" gong is ringing again.

    Maybe the Twins are bad because... wait for it... the starting pitching sucks?

    Hard to put a lot of blame on Anderson: Resurecting Burton, Diamond, and Perkins; a bunch of injuries in the last few years resulting in calling up unprepared players. Hard to blame Vavra. Look at all the career years players have had recently. He seems to be doing ok. Gardy is still being Gardy. Love him or hate him, he is giving the organization what they want. I don't think he will ever be fired.

    The overall organizational view worked for 10 years. It could work again, but a few things have bit them in the ass over the years. TJ injuries have depleted the pitching reserves. A handful of trades not working out. Not getting any return for Hunter, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Santana (nothing of value for Santana anyways). If the current group in the low minors comes up and hits the snot out of the ball in 2 years, all will be forgotten.
    No, it DIDN'T work for 10 years. It worked if you were happy with them being competitive in the A.L. Central and winning the division with some regularity.

    It DIDN'T work if you had a desire for them to be competitive in the post-season. It's pretty clear if you look at the Twins won-loss record against various teams that in the last 6 years or so, the A. L. East got substantially stronger while the Twins stagnated in the A. L. Central. Some of that was money. Some of that was draft postion. BUT some portion of that was organizational philosophy.

    I'm not putting all of that on Gardenhire and his coaches. A large part also falls on the front office. But we never see any turnover there either (I do not consider Ryan replacing Smith as any kind of significant change. It is the same philosophy with a familiar face at the helm).

    After 2010, I was fully prepared to endure several (and that means more than 2) horrific seasons like the last 2 -- as long as I could see a plan emerging that would take the Twin to competitiveness with the entire league not just the Central Division. But I haven't seen that -- all I've seen other than the Willingham signing (which was really just a replacement for Cuddyer) was a little tinkering around the edges. Everybody knew at the end of 2010 that the Twins' starting pitching wasn't good enough to win in the playoffs. Other than a bit in this year's draft, have we seen any moves to toward improvement? NO -- not through free agent signings and not through trades.

    I feel like the pain of the last 2 years has been utterly wasted. The Twins had an opportunity to start re-tooling after 2010 to try to rise to a higher level of competitiveness. They played it safe -- because their mantra is simply to stay competitive enough to put butts in the stands without taking any major risks in improving the team. Well guess what? Even their "play it safe' strategy failed.

    And now I'm even more depressed because I don't see them ever taking enough risk to become competitive with the big dogs in the league. This organization is stuck in a pretty deep rut. So yes, now change IS necessary and not just with the field staff. There is also a stench from the stagnation in the front office.

  11. #31
    If they bring up Brunansky or Gene Glynn (AAA Manager), or bring back Molitor full-time as a bench coach, my guess would be that this new person would be viewed as the eventual replacement for Gardenhire. If the team is doing poorly again next year, and it's the last year of Gardenhire's contract, and you want to increase flagging ticket sales, you bring in someone with name recognition (Bruno or Molitor) to generate excitement or promote someone with a proven record of success (Glynn). If they don't fire Gardy mid-season next year, he might instead make a graceful "retirement" (ala Tom Kelly) at the end of 2013. And the new manager will already be on the team, having assessed the roster for a full season.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Interesting. Ullger has already lost his job at 3b coach, is he viewed in some additional disfavor? His replacement could even get his feet wet in season one when Gardy is ejected.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    The "change for the sake of change" gong is ringing again.

    Maybe the Twins are bad because... wait for it... the starting pitching sucks?

    Hard to put a lot of blame on Anderson: Resurecting Burton, Diamond, and Perkins; a bunch of injuries in the last few years resulting in calling up unprepared players. Hard to blame Vavra. Look at all the career years players have had recently. He seems to be doing ok. Gardy is still being Gardy. Love him or hate him, he is giving the organization what they want. I don't think he will ever be fired.

    The overall organizational view worked for 10 years. It could work again, but a few things have bit them in the ass over the years. TJ injuries have depleted the pitching reserves. A handful of trades not working out. Not getting any return for Hunter, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Santana (nothing of value for Santana anyways). If the current group in the low minors comes up and hits the snot out of the ball in 2 years, all will be forgotten.
    No, it DIDN'T work for 10 years. It worked if you were happy with them being competitive in the A.L. Central and winning the division with some regularity.

    It DIDN'T work if you had a desire for them to be competitive in the post-season. It's pretty clear if you look at the Twins won-loss record against various teams that in the last 6 years or so, the A. L. East got substantially stronger while the Twins stagnated in the A. L. Central. Some of that was money. Some of that was draft postion. BUT some portion of that was organizational philosophy.

    I'm not putting all of that on Gardenhire and his coaches. A large part also falls on the front office. But we never see any turnover there either (I do not consider Ryan replacing Smith as any kind of significant change. It is the same philosophy with a familiar face at the helm).

    After 2010, I was fully prepared to endure several (and that means more than 2) horrific seasons like the last 2 -- as long as I could see a plan emerging that would take the Twin to competitiveness with the entire league not just the Central Division. But I haven't seen that -- all I've seen other than the Willingham signing (which was really just a replacement for Cuddyer) was a little tinkering around the edges. Everybody knew at the end of 2010 that the Twins' starting pitching wasn't good enough to win in the playoffs. Other than a bit in this year's draft, have we seen any moves to toward improvement? NO -- not through free agent signings and not through trades.

    I feel like the pain of the last 2 years has been utterly wasted. The Twins had an opportunity to start re-tooling after 2010 to try to rise to a higher level of competitiveness. They played it safe -- because their mantra is simply to stay competitive enough to put butts in the stands without taking any major risks in improving the team. Well guess what? Even their "play it safe' strategy failed.

    And now I'm even more depressed because I don't see them ever taking enough risk to become competitive with the big dogs in the league. This organization is stuck in a pretty deep rut. So yes, now change IS necessary and not just with the field staff. There is also a stench from the stagnation in the front office.
    I agree with this 100%
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  14. #34
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    3/4/59
    8/20/60
    ---------
    1 year, 5 months, 16 days

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    The "change for the sake of change" gong is ringing again.

    Maybe the Twins are bad because... wait for it... the starting pitching sucks?

    Hard to put a lot of blame on Anderson: Resurecting Burton, Diamond, and Perkins; a bunch of injuries in the last few years resulting in calling up unprepared players. Hard to blame Vavra. Look at all the career years players have had recently. He seems to be doing ok. Gardy is still being Gardy. Love him or hate him, he is giving the organization what they want. I don't think he will ever be fired.

    The overall organizational view worked for 10 years. It could work again, but a few things have bit them in the ass over the years. TJ injuries have depleted the pitching reserves. A handful of trades not working out. Not getting any return for Hunter, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Santana (nothing of value for Santana anyways). If the current group in the low minors comes up and hits the snot out of the ball in 2 years, all will be forgotten.
    No, it DIDN'T work for 10 years. It worked if you were happy with them being competitive in the A.L. Central and winning the division with some regularity.

    It DIDN'T work if you had a desire for them to be competitive in the post-season. It's pretty clear if you look at the Twins won-loss record against various teams that in the last 6 years or so, the A. L. East got substantially stronger while the Twins stagnated in the A. L. Central. Some of that was money. Some of that was draft postion. BUT some portion of that was organizational philosophy.

    I'm not putting all of that on Gardenhire and his coaches. A large part also falls on the front office. But we never see any turnover there either (I do not consider Ryan replacing Smith as any kind of significant change. It is the same philosophy with a familiar face at the helm).

    After 2010, I was fully prepared to endure several (and that means more than 2) horrific seasons like the last 2 -- as long as I could see a plan emerging that would take the Twin to competitiveness with the entire league not just the Central Division. But I haven't seen that -- all I've seen other than the Willingham signing (which was really just a replacement for Cuddyer) was a little tinkering around the edges. Everybody knew at the end of 2010 that the Twins' starting pitching wasn't good enough to win in the playoffs. Other than a bit in this year's draft, have we seen any moves to toward improvement? NO -- not through free agent signings and not through trades.

    I feel like the pain of the last 2 years has been utterly wasted. The Twins had an opportunity to start re-tooling after 2010 to try to rise to a higher level of competitiveness. They played it safe -- because their mantra is simply to stay competitive enough to put butts in the stands without taking any major risks in improving the team. Well guess what? Even their "play it safe' strategy failed.

    And now I'm even more depressed because I don't see them ever taking enough risk to become competitive with the big dogs in the league. This organization is stuck in a pretty deep rut. So yes, now change IS necessary and not just with the field staff. There is also a stench from the stagnation in the front office.
    I agree with this 100%
    I think parts of this are so off base that I wonder if they even remembered what they were watching. Failure to win anything other than a division title with Cy Young and MVP winners speaks of the inability of the players to elevate their game in the post season. Management put them in a position to win, the players did not come through.
    Looking in hindsight to say they should have retooled is easy to say NOW. If Pavano stays healthy, and Baker, Liriano continued to improve with Slowey and Blackburn holding steady 2011 would have been a different story and you wouldn't be whining.
    Should they have traded Liriano after the 2010 season? The return would have been great. Fans wouldn't have liked it. Should have Morneau been traded in 08 rather than having a contract extension? Would have been better value. Should have they traded Hunter rather than picks? You would have said no if the Twins had drafted Lance Lynn instead of Shooter Hunt. They had to keep Hunter as Span was not ready. Easy to complain with the advantage of hindsight. 3-4 years from now you might be saying that Cuddyer for Berrios was great.
    The choices to sign players to long term contracts took away their ability to trade for prospects. Smith did not trade established players well. They drafted players poorly. Combine those two and you have the state of baseball the Twins are in. Free agency with a limited budget will not turn this team around. It can plug a hole, but there are too many.

    Your pain of the last two years is because one person did not learn how to rebuild a team and another knew he couldn't fix it overnight. When the local cheap people plunk down large enough sums of money that the Twins can have the money like the "big dogs" of the league, they will spend that way.

  16. #36
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    If you believe change is necessary, firing a bench coach accomplishes nothing. Either make a change, which means a new manager, or live with the current group. Changing a coach or two is window dressing.

    Personally, I think it's time to tell Gardy "thanks, we're going in a new direction.". Others may disagree, and that's fine. But don't insult my intelligence by pretending changing out Steve Liddle will make any substantive difference. This is Gardys team, and he will run it the same no matter the bench coach.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    The "change for the sake of change" gong is ringing again.

    Maybe the Twins are bad because... wait for it... the starting pitching sucks?

    Hard to put a lot of blame on Anderson: Resurecting Burton, Diamond, and Perkins; a bunch of injuries in the last few years resulting in calling up unprepared players. Hard to blame Vavra. Look at all the career years players have had recently. He seems to be doing ok. Gardy is still being Gardy. Love him or hate him, he is giving the organization what they want. I don't think he will ever be fired.

    The overall organizational view worked for 10 years. It could work again, but a few things have bit them in the ass over the years. TJ injuries have depleted the pitching reserves. A handful of trades not working out. Not getting any return for Hunter, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Santana (nothing of value for Santana anyways). If the current group in the low minors comes up and hits the snot out of the ball in 2 years, all will be forgotten.
    No, it DIDN'T work for 10 years. It worked if you were happy with them being competitive in the A.L. Central and winning the division with some regularity.

    It DIDN'T work if you had a desire for them to be competitive in the post-season. It's pretty clear if you look at the Twins won-loss record against various teams that in the last 6 years or so, the A. L. East got substantially stronger while the Twins stagnated in the A. L. Central. Some of that was money. Some of that was draft postion. BUT some portion of that was organizational philosophy.

    I'm not putting all of that on Gardenhire and his coaches. A large part also falls on the front office. But we never see any turnover there either (I do not consider Ryan replacing Smith as any kind of significant change. It is the same philosophy with a familiar face at the helm).

    After 2010, I was fully prepared to endure several (and that means more than 2) horrific seasons like the last 2 -- as long as I could see a plan emerging that would take the Twin to competitiveness with the entire league not just the Central Division. But I haven't seen that -- all I've seen other than the Willingham signing (which was really just a replacement for Cuddyer) was a little tinkering around the edges. Everybody knew at the end of 2010 that the Twins' starting pitching wasn't good enough to win in the playoffs. Other than a bit in this year's draft, have we seen any moves to toward improvement? NO -- not through free agent signings and not through trades.

    I feel like the pain of the last 2 years has been utterly wasted. The Twins had an opportunity to start re-tooling after 2010 to try to rise to a higher level of competitiveness. They played it safe -- because their mantra is simply to stay competitive enough to put butts in the stands without taking any major risks in improving the team. Well guess what? Even their "play it safe' strategy failed.

    And now I'm even more depressed because I don't see them ever taking enough risk to become competitive with the big dogs in the league. This organization is stuck in a pretty deep rut. So yes, now change IS necessary and not just with the field staff. There is also a stench from the stagnation in the front office.
    I agree with this 100%


    Interesting. I disagree with it almost 100%.(The part I agree with is that the OP is depressed.)

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    FYI, I said this already in the fall of 2010 so this was NOT hindsight for me.

    There had always been some commenters on the Strib and other places who were saying that the Twins couldn't win in the post-season but I chose to keep the faith UNTIL 2010. Then, the debacle that was the end of the 2010 season struck me and I realized that they were absolutely right. The Twins COULDN'T win in the post-season without making some significant changes (starting pitching mostly but other organizational changes as well.)

    Not everyone is looking at this with hindsight. There HAVE been people around since 2010 and earlier who have been calling for major changes in this organization.

    You probably discounted them as well.

    It depends on what you want. I knew in October 2010 that the Twins couldn't win without changes. The only thing they chose to do was replace J. J. Hardy with Nishioka. That didn't bother me because at least they were doing something (although I thought they were smart enough to do something with better results). But I -- and a whole lot of other people -- knew that they needed to do SOMETHING besides bring back Carl Pavano. And It didn't happen. Well, 2 years later, here we are with a whole lot more improvement to make -- and having wasted 2 years when changes could have been made.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    FYI, I said this already in the fall of 2010 so this was NOT hindsight for me.

    There had always been some commenters on the Strib and other places who were saying that the Twins couldn't win in the post-season but I chose to keep the faith UNTIL 2010. Then, the debacle that was the end of the 2010 season struck me and I realized that they were absolutely right. The Twins COULDN'T win in the post-season without making some significant changes (starting pitching mostly but other organizational changes as well.)

    Not everyone is looking at this with hindsight. There HAVE been people around since 2010 and earlier who have been calling for major changes in this organization.

    You probably discounted them as well.

    It depends on what you want. I knew in October 2010 that the Twins couldn't win without changes. The only thing they chose to do was replace J. J. Hardy with Nishioka. That didn't bother me because at least they were doing something (although I thought they were smart enough to do something with better results). But I -- and a whole lot of other people -- knew that they needed to do SOMETHING besides bring back Carl Pavano. And It didn't happen. Well, 2 years later, here we are with a whole lot more improvement to make -- and having wasted 2 years when changes could have been made.

    The Twins first goal is to put a winning team on the field. Regular season wins has shown to increase attendance. More attendance= revenue. Their first goal was a competitive team, building for the future second.
    If a Scott Baker continues to develop and not injured and if Liriano continues to what his potential was, the outcomes for the last two years are totally different, as would be your attitude.
    Did the Twins have what was needed to trade for a stud player? NO. Good players for potential prospects if they had a willing partner (the list that left as free agents), but no prospects that were far enough along to get a prime player for a few of them

    If doing poor moves satisfies you, there is not much to be said for you. Nishi and two stiffs for Hardy is about as poor as it gets. Doing something that sets you back is a gain in your book?
    As I have said in the past, the Twins lack the player that will carry the team. They have not had one since Puckett. Rarely can you trade for such player. Rarely do they become available as free agents. Without that player a thin team like any Twins team will be will not be g be great in the playoffs.

    Long before 2010 it was evident the Twins lacked an ace pitcher, and a catalyst on the offense needed for a championship. Winning seasons appeared to be enough for the public, see attendance figures for proof. If you foresaw the injuries and lack of development back in 2010 that have beset this team, I would not believe you. Hindsight

  20. #40
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    The Twins first goal is to put a winning team on the field. Regular season wins has shown to increase attendance. More attendance= revenue. Their first goal was a competitive team, building for the future second.

    NO, their primary goal is to make as large a profit as they can.

    As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to bother to argue. It is pretty apparent that we view this team and this organization very differently. I'm not going to bother to argue across a great divide.

    I

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